King High

[Schneids]

cross-posted from HU/SH forum...

3-handed 30/60.

I raise K9o from the button, both blinds call.

Flop is JJ6 with two spades.

SB bets, BB folds, I call. I have the king of spades.
SB has been playing very, very passively lately (as in past 15 minutes). I've played with SB before and know he's a little too loose PF and usually plays much more aggressively postflop.

Turn 7s. SB bets, I call.

River J. SB bets, I call.

[Joe Tall]

Post deleted by Joe Tall

[Schneids]

Picking up a king-high flush draw on the turn is a bad thing?

[Joe Tall]

Picking up a king-high flush draw on the turn is a bad thing?

I obviously missed that K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, now I like a turn raise, headed to a free showdown.

Happy Holidays,
Joe Tall

[Schneids]

This conversation with gonores kind of explains my thought process on the hand...which I guess is what I'm looking for feedback on since I don't really expect anyone to immediately say "yeah I love calling all the way down with king high."

gonores: hmmmm....i'd probably just fold this on the flop
Schneids: but i want +EV no matter how minute
Schneids: that is such a bluff flop too
gonores: yeah, but bluff-line for this bluff flop is check-raise
gonores: or check-call, checkraise
Schneids: but what if you have a tight image and are changing gears against an opponent who may notice?
gonores: i wouldn't worry about forseeing gear-changes, even at 30/60, if the player you are playing with is "too-loose" PF
gonores: I tell you this much....i pretty much hate call call call here
Schneids: so my efforts to become the complete total WCP are meaningless given so few of my opponents are considering gear changes?
gonores: depending on my exact read, i think my first line is fold on the flop, the second line is call flop, raise turn
gonores: i can't see why call call call is superior to raising the turn
gonores: then again, 3-handed is easily my worst LHE game
Schneids: 1) prevents you from getting bluff reraised by an opponent who thinks he has an image to cash in on
Schneids: 2) turn was 3rd spade, i wouldn't mind seeing riv for 1 bet (instead of 3...or 2 for that matter)
gonores: oh....didnt even see that
Schneids: 2.5) esp. when i apparently consider it legit possibility he is either exactly with sh!t cards or trip jacks
Schneids: and then the third jack on the river makes me feel even more likely my hand might be good
gonores: eh.....i hate call call call less now that i think about it
gonores: but i still think you can wait for better spots to get dirty
Schneids: plus with this being 3-handed you cannot constantly just fold on every flop when you are bet into
Schneids: unless you are bet into about 1 in 19 flops obviously
gonores: yeah....i see your point


So.....?

[Joe Tall]

So...I'm with gonores for the most part. I think if you have fold/free showdown potential against this cat, then raise the turn.

Happy Holidays,
Joe Tall

[sublime]

Post deleted by Joe Tall

alkie

[Joe Tall]

alkie

Hey, I'm trying to stunt my growth. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif Thanks for your input on this hand, you are right up there with TSP w/this reply.

Happy Holidays,
Joe Tall

[sublime]

schneids-

flop, i dont fold here. like ever. i guess suspects for opponent include:

J
flush draw
pocket pair
nothing at all- although if he had this he would probably play it stronger

turn, picked up flush draw. raising may buy you the pot, but from your player description i doubt it. also a jack or small flush is gonna 3-bet ya obviously.

river, 6-1 that he has nothing. nothing without an ace also. damn close man. but i am calling, but thats what i do SH. call. often /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Chris Daddy Cool]

sup homie,

i dont' fold this flop and i likely raise the turn. the river call is close but probably necessary to snap off a bluff. if the J doesnt fall on the river, i don't see how you could call a bet though.

there are some pluses and minuses with raising the turn, most of it dealing with the likelyhood of getting 3-bet and also the ability of your opponent to fold. interesting turn that could go either way i think.

[Peter_rus]

I would fold river.

[worm33]

Playing 3 handed your not required to go to a showdown. Obviously I know you know this but you can fold the flop here when you miss. Unless you really really think K high is going to be good here i dont know I still dont like it.

[Stork]

These limits are way higher than I play, so don't take anything I say seriously.
That said, this seems like a textbook example of a situation where you have reverse implied odds taking this line. If he's got you beat, he gets you for a bet on every round. If not, he can back off whenever. I'm not exactly sure what I'd do, but I'd probably either a) fold the flop, b) raise the flop, or c) call the flop and raise the turn, depending on my read of the player. Looks like SB maybe had a weak ace, A5 or something?

[Schneids]

SB had T9o, I win with K9o.

Dunno maybe raising the turn is better, but raising the turn kills any bluffs and may or may not fold an ace high. Plus turn gets 3-bet by a lot of hands that are beating me but I'm still drawing v. live against.


I think the most important part of this hand is the meta-game effects. Winning one of these is huge in getting more flops to go check, bet, fold. And winning one of these has the possibility to tilt the opponent further.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you really really think K high is going to be good here i dont know I still dont like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I obviously was nowhere near "very" convinced K-high was good but the opponent's bet out felt very out of place, combined with his previously v. passive play. Usually if I go passive 3-handed it's to set up more check raises, not to set up more bet outs. The bet out smells like "I haven't been betting in a long time, I don't have anything but I'm hoping you think I will since I haven't bet out in a long time."

[ QUOTE ]
Playing 3 handed your not required to go to a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like going to showdowns though. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[fearme]

i think k high will win often enough,

[NMcNasty]

I really think you have to fold the river here, the only real hands you can beat are QT, T9, 98, and some odd suited hands.

Raising the turn is a much better option, you should get weak aces to fold, and you could get small pocket pairs and possibly weak sixes or sevens to fold.