Interesting hand... 3bet w/ AQo [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Haupt_234

12-26-2004, 01:48 AM

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Table has been a typical tight 5/10 table (2-4 on each flop). It was about my 3rd orbit at the table and I didn't have close reads on everyone yet but MP3 never got out of line and was playing very tight.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $5.
Hero raises, UTG+1 (poster) calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 3-bets, 3 folds, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (15.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.20 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, BB calls.

River: (14.20 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 16.20 BB

Any thought on the way I played out this hand? I have never played one out in this fashion and am having trouble thinking of an alternate way to play it. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Haupt_234

Harv72b

12-26-2004, 02:29 AM

I can't think of any other to play it. I just hope BB wasn't playing scared with 2 pair or a small set.

SamIAm

12-26-2004, 03:41 AM

I can think of a different way to play it. RAISE that flop. You have top-pair with a good kicker, but you can't slow-play that. There's FIFTEEN bets in the pot? Why'd you just call with the bettor immediately before you? Kick some people out of your pot.

After that, you're all good. Aggression is appropriate with the paired ace. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-Sam

Shillx

12-26-2004, 03:45 AM

MP3 is getting a pretty good price to draw at KK/QQ when you just call the flop (from his perspective). I think I just raise straight away.

Brad

Haupt_234

12-26-2004, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP3 is getting a pretty good price to draw at KK/QQ when you just call the flop (from his perspective). I think I just raise straight away.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP3 is not getting 23:1 on his call to chase his 2 outter(if that) so I am trying to induce a wrong call on his part. I think there is a lot more to the hand than "raising when I hit ace, draw when I don't hit ace".

The MP3 is playing very tight, so he either has AK, AQs, or KK-JJ. If I raise the flop, I will either me 3bet by AK, called by AQs (50% shot IMO), or make him fold his 2 outter. I can't see any of these options being viable, so why raise?

After the tight MP3 just called the flop bet from the EP unknown player, I figured I was ahead and took that opporunity to raise the turn. By no means was I slowplaying my AQo. If the other players weren't in the hand, I think I would have strongly considered overcalling the turn/river since I did not know what the EP player was holding and I put MP3 on KK-JJ.

Haupt_234

chesspain

12-26-2004, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP3 is getting a pretty good price to draw at KK/QQ when you just call the flop (from his perspective). I think I just raise straight away.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP3 is not getting 23:1 on his call to chase his 2 outter(if that) so I am trying to induce a wrong call on his part. I think there is a lot more to the hand than "raising when I hit ace, draw when I don't hit ace".

The MP3 is playing very tight, so he either has AK, AQs, or KK-JJ. If I raise the flop, I will either me 3bet by AK, called by AQs (50% shot IMO), or make him fold his 2 outter. I can't see any of these options being viable, so why raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah...because you have two other players with possible draws who might fold the flop rather than call two cold.

Haupt_234

12-26-2004, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ah...because you have two other players with possible draws who might fold the flop rather than call two cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am giving a gutshot the odds to play, but a turn raise is best to reduce the flush draw callers (assuming a blank hits).

I am starting to agree with you that the sole presence of a gutshot should force me to raise this flop and be simple about it. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Haupt_234

Harv72b

12-26-2004, 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After the tight MP3 just called the flop bet from the EP unknown player, I figured I was ahead and took that opporunity to raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. I'd rather see what MP3 is going to do before I commit more of my chips to this pot.

If Hero raises straight away, MP3 is probably going to call 2 cold regardless of his holding, especially if he has a diamond in the hole. By calling the 1 bet, you set the PFR up to either raise with an A (or two), or call with pockets below A.

This flop is a classic case of either being way ahead or way behind. There's no use raising until you've figured out which it is.

chesspain

12-26-2004, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah...because you have two other players with possible draws who might fold the flop rather than call two cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am giving a gutshot the odds to play...

[/ QUOTE ]

...as well as the five-outers.

btspider

12-26-2004, 01:22 PM

Harv72b

12-26-2004, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah...because you have two other players with possible draws who might fold the flop rather than call two cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am giving a gutshot the odds to play...

[/ QUOTE ]

...as well as the five-outers.

[/ QUOTE ]

A 5-outer would be getting 9:1 to call 2 cold. With the implied odds in this pot, I'd make that call here.

7ontheline

12-26-2004, 02:20 PM

I agree with most of the posters here that you should raise the flop. You're not only giving gutshots and people who paired the lower board cards odds, you're even giving people with worse kickers to your Q to try to hit their 3-outer. With the bet coming from your immediate right and a good-sized pot already, make them call 2 bets.

Harv72b

12-26-2004, 02:49 PM

I think a lot of people are overstating the possibility of someone being on a draw here.

I've never played 5/10, but is the game really that much different that a player would get involved on a 3-bet preflop with a 7 or 3 in his hand? Or playing 24, 45, 46, or 56 (the only possible gutshot holdings)? Every player in this pot had to call 2 raises to see the flop, unless they were a raiser. The only likely draws Hero is up against are 2-outers (who shouldn't call 1 SB), 3-outers (who will call 2 because they've got top pair already), or flush draws (who'll call any amount of bets with a pot this size & this kind of action). Basically, the only thing Hero would really be accomplishing by raising is to make it incorrect for the 3 outers to call, assuming they'd correctly fold an ace with a smaller kicker anyway.

A lot of people are also playing with 20/20 hindsight, IMO. Hero still has a PF 3-better behind him, who may be on TT-KK, or may well have AK or AA (or even AQs, depending on the player/table). That makes 4 hands that Hero is well ahead of, and would want to call here, 2 hands that Hero is well behind of, and would 3-bet his raise or wait to raise on the turn, and one not very likely hand that Hero is tied with.

Once again, why raise the flop without knowing what MP3 is going to do behind him? Raising the turn here is a far better move, and one that is far more likely to eliminate those 3-outers.

me454555

12-26-2004, 07:28 PM

I really like this line of play given the texture of flop, size of the pot, and number of players. The pot is large and once the flop hits you should be doing everything you can win it.

A raise on the flop does almost nothing b/c each caller is getting at least 8.5:1 on their call. Add in the implied odds and thats enough to call w/middle pair, gut shots, and every other draw except the ones you are way ahead of like pocket pairs. With the pf 3 bet, there is a good chance you are either way ahead or way behind of MP3 and calling give you a better chance to figure out where you are.

By raising the turn you can also get more money out of flush draws who are calling anyway. You also get a chance to make other callers make huge mistakes by calling when they shouldn't.

Since you really can't prevent people from drawing out on you by raising the flop, a turn raise is better b/c it gives you chance the stop people from drawing out on you on the turn.

Haupt_234

12-27-2004, 02:18 AM

Shameless bump for more replies.

Haupt_234

jclin

12-27-2004, 02:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP3 is getting a pretty good price to draw at KK/QQ when you just call the flop (from his perspective). I think I just raise straight away.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP3 is not getting 23:1 on his call to chase his 2 outter(if that) so I am trying to induce a wrong call on his part.

[/ QUOTE ]

getting 17.4:1 or better seems like an easy call closing the action for JJ-KK. why would you fold with potentially juicy implied odds involved.. especially if you hold a diamond.

[/ QUOTE ]

The juicy implied odds...right on the money w/that one.

jclin

12-27-2004, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I really like this line of play given the texture of flop, size of the pot, and number of players. The pot is large and once the flop hits you should be doing everything you can win it.

Since you really can't prevent people from drawing out on you by raising the flop, a turn raise is better b/c it gives you chance the stop people from drawing out on you on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

But, I am not a big fan of the bet on the river HU. AK, AJ, AT beats you. AQ ties. Flush draw would win anyways. What else would BB bet on, and still stick around? 79? I could only hope. /images/graemlins/smile.gif