Am I playing too high of limit?

[Blizzman]

I have been playing on line for aver a year and have yet to show a profit. Constanlty making deposits of $50 a month average. I like playing $10 STT and $25 NL. I do ok but eventually on bad sessions my BR is $0 and back to the cashier I go. The least amount you can play for on Party Poker is .05/1. Should I stick to this limit or is this too high for my $50. I have been doing a lot of reading books recently,but still no $$$. Found this site the other day and love it. I think I need some good advice and it would be greatly appreciated.

[OrianasDaad]

There is a general guideline for bankroll in limit games. Most games have a structure of x/y, where x is the bet size pre-flop and flop (small bet), and where y is the bet size on the turn and river (big bet - or BB).

You want around 300BB to have a "low risk of ruin". A bad run of 50BB will bankrupt you at .5/1 - and given standard variance, this is certainly something you have to consider as a real possibility.

There are plenty of sites where you can play at lower limits, and I would advise doing so. With a $50 deposit, and a standard 20% signup bonus at a site, you'll be able to play at .10/.20 without much risk of losing your entire roll.

This advice is for limit, however. If you are playing NL, then there is advice elsewhere on the site - and has been asked before. Toy around with the search function and I'm sure you'll find something. Don't forget to look at the advanced options.

[afk]

I'll be blunt, but don't take it personally.

You are probably not a very good player - I'm saying that because this has gone on for over a year. And as the previous reply mentioned, $50 is not enough of a bankroll to play $.5/1, $10 SNG's or $25NL.

Here is my advice.

Drop down in limits. Forget party for a while and get an account at Paradise or Pokerstars, both offer limits below $.5/1. $50 isn't really even large enough for $.25/.50, so you could play .05/.10 or make a larger deposit ($100 - 150, $150 being "ideal") and play $.25/.50. Head over to the micro forum, start reading and start posting hands. If you apply what you learn, I guarantee you that your next deposit will be your last and you will run on winnings after that.

[AKQJ10]

300 BB only applies if we assume we're talking about the OP's full bankroll. If this is like, "I put 50 bucks of my discretionary fun money in and i'd rather not lose it, but if so, i could always find 50 more in no time" then $50 = 300 BBet isn't really the approriate comparison. I'm not sure which is the case from the original post.

However, the other poster's comments about not yet being able to beat .50/$1 might be relevant too. In that case, if you're going to lose to a game for a while as you're gaining experience, might as well make it a cheaper game.

[afk]

Oh I agree with you, and of course the 300BB figure assumes you're a winning player. I'm just suggesting that he should buckle down and study, make one final, bankroll-ish-sized deposit and go from there. But if he feels comfortable making small deposits and having bankroll money set aside, then so be it. I'd just set aside the poker bankroll from your other finances.

[lorinda]

If you are losing, you are always playing too big.

Sadly, it's that simple unless you have data to the contrary.

Would you rather win $5 a day at some other limit or lose $50 a day at the limit you are playing?

Lori

[Blizzman]

That is the way I deposit, a little at a time. Keeps me off the radar if you know what I mean. But, I still should not have to keep throwing money at it. I tried again last night and got down 16BB and got out. Got good cards but really never hit a flop. Tried bluffing after not hitting, but these guys were so loose they would stay with middle pair and beat me. I'll try and post some hands from this session. Don't know if I know how though?

Thanks for the response,

Mike

[Megenoita]

I think that it would be a great idea for you to stop putting money into poker. By that I mean that it would behoove you to go to Royal Vegas, sign up, get the free $10, and play 5c/10c games in LHE. Take the games very seriously...play the best you can, and post some hands. You are either going to build a BR from that, or lose and prove that you suck. Move up the levels as you gauge your own progression. You'll make it to at least 1/2 in no time.

This is very similar to my own experience, and playing so many micro limit hands really helped me to digest Theory of Poker better, and once I got to SSHE, I became a winning player immediately. Plus, it's great not to spend your own money.

M

[Blizzman]

Thanks for the input. I'd like to think I don't suck but my BR tells me I do I guess. I have built my BR to 660BB before but then seem to get froggy and jump up to 2/4 or $30-$50 SNG.I have learned alot in my short time here about the BB number required to move to the next level. That is part of my problem I think? Lately I have had no luck mainly playing $10 SNG. Hence, deposit deposit. Anyway, I finally figured out how to post a hand. This is what I've been running into. Tell me what you think

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

River: (10.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Ac 3h (full house, threes full of sixes).
MP2 has Jc Td (two pair, tens and sixes).
Outcome: BB wins 17.25 BB. </font>

Thanks,
Mike

[Megenoita]

First, since you're going to hear this a lot, you have to have reads on your opponents (and post them). Were you observing your opponents closely? Do you have PT stats on them? What kind of players are they? Loose-passive?

Second, it's a good idea not to post results until after people have commented.

As for your play, it's definitely fine. I think it's completely standard. Preflop is. Flop-against these kinds of players getting 13.5:1 on your call with possibly 4 outs, you call. The turn is a clear fold.

More importantly, we should talk about how to think about these hands. When you are analysing your play later, like now, off table, you should think about what hand ranges you can put on each player, and then find out what your equity is against each of the hands, weigh them all together, and calculate your outs. On that basis, you learn what the right decision is.

I've spent the last couple of hours going over hand ranges for the players...what hands do you think each player can have at the flop?

M

[AncientPC]

I'd second afk's advice.

For my brother's Xmas present I gave him $60, a registered version of PT, and sent him to .10/.20 limit on Paradise.

Unless you like continuously losing $50 at a time, I'd keep better records of how much money goes in / out for poker.

[Megenoita]

Talk about a great Christmas gift!

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are losing, you are always playing too big.

Sadly, it's that simple unless you have data to the contrary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely true in theory -- less clear how to apply it in practice, for two reasons:

1. You can't learn to play without experience and sometimes that means taking the worst of it

That should be pretty self-explanatory. It applies if you can't beat the lowest cash limit you can find but can beat play money. (If you can't beat play money, practice until you can beat play money, but if you can beat play money and can't beat the lowest microlimit then you're going to have to lose some money. Fortunately even total novices can learn to beat the micros pretty quickly.)

It also applies if you want to learn how to beat a tougher game so you can move up. In his CardPlayer interview Ivey talked about playing at some limit, maybe $300/$600, in order to make bankroll so he could go blow it in the game he really wanted to learn to beat, $3000/$6000 i think it was. I'll probably never learn to beat a game that big but the same could apply in going from 5/10 to 10/20 or what have you.

2. There's no reliable way to tell whether you can beat a game or not until you've played several thousand hands

No one's yet given me a reliable way to distinguish a bad run of cards from bad play. For example I'm -111 big bets all time in 30 hours of $3/$6; at what point do I determine that I'm really a losing player at that limit? 30 hours doesn't seem anywhere near enough, certainly. But if I am a losing player, I'm not really eager to blow a couple of thousand dollars to find that out. (Fortunately, I am beating Foxwoods 2/4 fairly consistently.)

The situation is obviously better in online poker because you can play the microlimits until you know you can beat them, and depending on the site you may be able to post hand histories to see if you're playing poorly or not. I'm eager to hear other ways that beginners like me have determined when a bad run is just a bad run, or when it's bad play.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
...it would behoove you to go to Royal Vegas, sign up, get the free $10, and play 5c/10c games in LHE. Take the games very seriously...play the best you can, and post some hands. You are either going to build a BR from that, or lose and prove that you suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was under the impression that -100 big bets didn't prove a thing, even in the loosest game on earth. See my lengthy post just above, 2nd half, for more thoughts on "Do I suck or is it just variance?"

[LSUfan1]

The biggest possible problem you could have is not listening to the posters here.

I went back and forth for months, and made several deposits.

Once I started reading this forum, and really listening and applying the principles I started to win. I haven't made a deposit in quite a while now, and even though I have good and bad days I am now playing on other peoples money thanks to these posters.

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM YOU COULD HAVE is the ability to read this and NOT listen.

Change sites and drop down in limits! Read the micros, and be prepared to start winning!