FRUSH

[Evan]

SB is TAGish

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (10 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>


How do we like it up to here?

[MoDOH]

You know what? I probably go for the overcalls on the river too.
Flop and Turn are really easy I think. But I don´t especially like your raise on this River. I think there is more value to just calling this river

[Michael Davis]

Garbage. Raise the flop because you're getting callers who are drawing dead. Raise the turn because now they might have outs and if they do they've got a straight or flush draw too and they'll call two again.

You should definitely try to get into a raising war with a board like this. You really don't have to worry about everyone folding anywhere.

-Michael

[Luv2DriveTT]

Interesting hand, because it's litterally the same scenario as posted by CDC, except he was second to act and raised the flop. I prefer Evan's line of thinking here, including the turn. Your lucky you were able to get the three limpers to hang on mate!

But on the river... to be honest I don't know what to do, is this a call or a raise scenario.... I really don't know. You are probably winning, but we don't know for sure. SB could have a smaller flush, Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif, QT anysuited, 9x, or the dreaded TT (many players are reluctant to raise TT from the blinds with a full field of opponents). My point is it's really hard to put SB on anything at all. I'd like to see some opinions, and their rationalizations.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Luv2DriveTT]

Michael - Evan is second to act in a field of 5 players. I see the rational for a turn raise, but getting into a raising war is pointless on the flop. He doesn't have to protect his hand (yet), and he has 3 players remaining that he wants to keep in the pot. Raising the flop will drive them out of the pot. I've played this situation numerous times, both the way you advocate, and the way Evan played it... in the long run Evan's is the more profitable way when playing on a loose passive table.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Michael Davis]

What do put SB on? Evan has this hand won for sure.

-Michael

[sthief09]

yeah I agree 100%

[Michael Davis]

Well, I don't have much to say except that I flat out disagree that raising immediately isn't the best line. People aren't going home on a JT9s flop, and there are just tons of hands they can have that they want to get to the end with. 1/2 of the guys who called one bet are definitely calling two. Plus, there is going to be a lot more action because Evan couldn't possibly raise there with the nut flush.

I'm not trying to protect the hand. If I need to protect the hand, they're calling two bets.

Finally, what hand is TAG leading out into a field on that flop? Evan's getting a ton of action from him alone before he figures that Evan fastplayed the nuts. Others are going to get strung along for the ride.

-Michael

[Luv2DriveTT]

Thats my point.... we can't put SB on anything. There is not enough information. There is the full house possiblity if anyone hold's a set, but it's impossible to tell.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting hand, because it's litterally the same scenario as posted by CDC, except he was second to act and raised the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Had this been the 15 game I would've raised the flop but the 5/10 fulls are particularly nittish.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
What do put SB on? Evan has this hand won for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well I'm plenty nervous here with the 11th nuts. SB could have flopped two pair, a set, or one of three straight flushes.

I completely agree with you that Evan should have raised the flop and the turn too for all the reasons you gave. But now that I've called to the river I think I want to play for those three overcalls instead of investing extra money in fighting with SB.

[SCfuji]

pf is good
flop is good
turn turned out really good
river is the only street i question. you only need one more caller behind you to get the same number of bets in if you raised and sb called. of course, if you do have the best hand and somebody behind you still likes there hand and you get more bb in the river more power to you. like i said before i prefer the conservative approach and would just call the river bet.

[Entity]

Evan,

I think I like this line better if the flop is raggedy spades, rather than JT9. I think you can get plenty of action on the flop, the same amount (or more) of action on the turn, and can probably justify what the best course of action is on this river. So yeah, I'd raise the flop. If it was 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, then yeah, I could see the overcalls not being so bad.

Rob

[SCfuji]

just so i understand your thinking, the bigger flop that evan got is better, because it was more likely to have hit more people? so our hero should've went balls to the walls and jammed this pot right?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
just so i understand your thinking, the bigger flop that evan got is better, because it was more likely to have hit more people? so our hero should've went balls to the walls and jammed this pot right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. People are more likely to fold to a raise on a raggedy spade board than on a board that contains tons of draws for common limping hands.

Rob

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Evan,

I think I like this line better if the flop is raggedy spades, rather than JT9. I think you can get plenty of action on the flop, the same amount (or more) of action on the turn, and can probably justify what the best course of action is on this river. So yeah, I'd raise the flop. If it was 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, then yeah, I could see the overcalls not being so bad.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Think about all the stuff out there that the avg player will call 2 bets on this flop almost as happily as one: Any made flush or straight or set of course, also any straight draw or 2 pair, plus the K or Q or 9 of spades. Some lesser hands as well. This board is primed for action. Your bad relative position is not as much an issue here because of the board texture.

I would pop turn too to protect.

Based on your line through turn, I continue with the overcalls on river.

[private joker]

I'd raise this flop too, because anyone with any spade or OESD probably isn't going anywhere, and when you raise no one puts you on the flopped flush. But given the game conditions, it's possible that calling was cool.

I like the turn call because of the paired board. If he raises, everyone goes away immediately. If he calls, someone behind him with a 9 might get excited and raised into Evan, who will then 3-bet. Since no one did, I think Evan's hand is the best 99.97% of the time. The river is a good raise because people staying in with 1 spade are folding anyway. And to Villain(s), Evan just looks like some guy who woke up with a pair of Aces on the river.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Evan's hand is the best 99.97% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is over the top.

TAG SB has bet every street on a nightmare board. It's OK to really like your hand but don't be so amazed if you lose.