JJ Early Level 1 $10 +1

[Turk]

Where did I go wrong with this one?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t985)
MP2 (t730)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t755)
Button (t860)
SB (t785)
BB (t660)
Hero (t800)
UTG+1 (t785)
UTG+2 (t840)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t55</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls t55, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t55, CO folds, Button calls t55, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t245) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t125</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t600</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t805 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds, MP3 calls t145 (All-In).

Turn: (t1920) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1920) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1920

[Spladle Master]

Nowhere.

Good fold.

[partygirluk]

Please stop making such results oriented posts.

[betgo]

Of course your preflop raise was fine. With 2 players practically allin on the flop, you had to fold. The first raise could possibly have been a flush draw or TT. However, the push is probably a 9, 44, or maybe a big pair.

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
Please stop making such results oriented posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am NOT going all in 3-ways with JJ on this flop

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
Where did I go wrong with this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Posting it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

In all seriousness - you didn't go wrong. Good fold. Some would say you went wrong with the preflop raise -- either limp it or make more of a raise.

If you're posting this not because of the river jack but because you were up against TT and AK, then.. well.. you still made a good fold, but you should make notes about how LAGgy your opponents are.

(If you ARE posting it because of the river jack, remember that analyzing a hand based on the fact that a possible two-outer hit is all but useless. If everyone posted their gutshots that would have hit had they not folded, 2+2 would consist of little else.)

Early in a SnG, no reason to take this risk.
-DB

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Where did I go wrong with this one?



[/ QUOTE ]

UTG raise to 55 with JJ

Irieguy

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where did I go wrong with this one?



[/ QUOTE ]

UTG raise to 55 with JJ

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]I'll bet he'd find your post more helpful if you briefly explained why.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll bet he'd find your post more helpful if you briefly explained why.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

I will often simply state my opinion on a hand. That gives you 3 options: 1. Disregard it, 2. Figure out why it's correct, or 3. Figure out why it's incorrect.

All 3 options require at least a little bit of critical thinking. The bonus of options 2 and 3 is that the thread is likely to teach me something as well. And that's why I'm here.

Irieguy

[betgo]

A raise of 3 2/3 x BB is pretty standard. Perhaps it is something really deep, but I don't understand why this is such a bad play.

[bigredlemon]

You have to raise more to kick out the draws because the implied odds of them hitting a straight or flush is huge in NL. If they hit, they can take your whole stack.

You either have to treat JJ as a drawing hand to a set or else a made hand to kickout everyone but the high cards, and bet out if QKA doesn't flop.

[betgo]

There are no draws before the flop. If a suited connector or lower pair wants to call fine. You just need to make the right reads later on. If you raise more than 4xBB from early position, you may only get action from hands that are beating you. A larger raise may work this early in a $10 SNG, but in general I want more than the blinds with this kind of hand.

Furthermore, if you always make an overbet raise with certain hand, then your opponents can read that 6xBB means 99-QQ or AQ-AK and not AA, KK, 77, JTs, ATs, etc.

[Bigwig]

You did just fine.

Also, there's absolutely nothing wrong with raising JJ UTG. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero.

[Turk]

OK, I limp UTG then and the same flop comes, paired flush draw neither of which I have a piece of, but no over cards. There are most likely more players at this point right, because no raise, so, what is my play at this flop with JJ?

[betgo]

The main problem with raising UTG with JJ is what do you do if you get reraised.

While raising is more standard, limping UTG is OK early in a tournament or SNG. If you get raised, you can decide whether to reraise, call, or fold based on your read on the action. If you get called, you are partly playing for a set, but you can also bet an underflop.

[Irieguy]

Then you can check the flop and play for value depending on what happens behind you. A 9 should not be difficult to spot, and the pot is small enough to allow you to manipulate a club draw into making a mistake on the turn.

There's nothing wrong with getting jacks out of position in level 1 of a SNG and refusing to lose a bunch of chips with them. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

Irieguy

[Daliman]

Couple things

#1 My opinions likely hold more weight for higher buyin games.

#2 55 is an OK raise here, but I prefer a bit more UTG with a M-BPP. When raising early stages I ALWAYS raise a MINIMUM 4x, unless strictly in blind steal position, then 50/50 solid/speculative hands I will mix up my size 2x-5x.

#3 I don't know if you would have posted this had the J not come on the river, thus I am thinking you are wondering whether there is any way you get to the river. I'm thinking no. Seems to me you are versus 2 of 4 kinds of hands here
A. A nine,(not meaning Ace-9) making you drawing about 9%
B. 44, making you drawing also drawing 9% on the flop, but dead by the turn, and zero chance of him not taking all your chips.
C. A bigger pair, 9%
D. A flush draw, anywhere from 48-66%

(99 is not likely from either player given the action, and 44 is only likely from the second allin.)

The chances of you being versus any other type of hand with two people allin here is minimal. Folding, therefore, is obviouslly the right play.

Now, let's consider if you can get to the river any other way, without being reckless.

-If you limp, obviously the same people limp as call, plus a few. Let's only consider those who called initially though, although it specifically has little bearing on the way I hash this out, which is trying to compare each pairing of the likely holdings vs you.

-A nine vs. 44. The nine likely forces action on the flop to push out flush draws, making it somewhat expensive at a minimum on the flop for you, but not really moreso than you had in your own scenario. By the turn though, you can no longer play unless BOTH players slowplay, and if 44 IS out, you are drawing dead anyways.
No river
- A 9 vs a Bigger pair. Bigger pair likely either raises reasonably on flop or waits until turn. 9 again pushing out draws, so might push allin on flop. Likely no turn, much less river.

-A nine versus a flush draw. The most likely scenario, which also has you drawing very thin and a fair amount of river action. Flush draw will shut down on turn if possible, but might be too late. Likely lots of flop action, and river somewhat possible, but doubtful and not an attractive option.

-44 vs Bigger pair. 44 is in no rush to get $$$ in in any case here, but may value bet smallish on turn to get action from a 9, and Bigger pair may be wary. This seems to me the most likely way you get to the river, but obviously, this is a terrible scenario for you to do so.

-44 vs flush draw. Flush draw may make a decent raise on the flop that 44 would slowplay, but again, by the turn, the flush draw is usually dumped if possible. JJ likely can't survive flop, and wouldn't want to anyways here.

-Bigger pocket pair vs Flush draw. This likely gets banged around some on the flop too, moreso by the flush draw if the cards are above ten. Getting to river, or even turn is highly unlikely.

So, turk, your answer is you did well. Whoever is coaching you is doing a good job /images/graemlins/wink.gif .