Hardest hand I've had to play yet - 1/2 6-max [Archive]

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JrJordan

12-24-2004, 09:44 PM

So I'm clearing another lovely Party bonus when this hand comes along, and I'm basically at a loss for words on how to play it. Comments on all streets appreciated.

UTG in this hand is typical Party loose passive. Button is relatively tight (VPIP around 30) and pseudo aggressive preflop/flop, but aggression goes considerably down after that.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, Hero raises, CO folds, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

 Button has been pretty aggro and will bet this flop with any two cards, so I plan on catching UTG for a bet with a c/r and go from there. UTG's raise throws me off, but decide to three bet to with the overpair. Button's cap makes me pretty sure I'm behind here and plan to slow down/get out on the turn, until... 

Turn: (11.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG raises, Hero calls, Button calls.

 Flopped the set. Good or bad? I'm ahead to a possible button overpair like AA or KK, but I really don't know what UTG has. UTG's check after all the flop aggression makes me believe he's still drawing for the flush, so I bet out. The button call and UTG c/r sure seems like an overpair for button and flopped flush/straight for UTG. I call, planning to check/call the river because of the massive pot. 

River: (17.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls, Button raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero folds, Button caps, UTG calls.

 I hit my flush but just can't believe after all this action that my J high is any good. I call a single bet from UTG hoping he was on two low spades, but fold when it comes back for two to me. 

Final Pot: 26.25 BB

I felt exhausted after this one, how'd I do? Results after a few responses. Merry Christmas all.

wahooriver

12-24-2004, 09:52 PM

All answers are a guess. I think there is too much money in the pot to fold. (clearly a Miller play) You have a better than 10% chance of having a winner ... so see the bets and hope they are better on a lower flush, or the straight.

Nemesis

12-24-2004, 10:07 PM

wow, that's a difficult hand, a 3 bet on the turn may be in order, as you have a boatload of outs, and it may have made the river easier to play... but I don't know. I really don't know what to say... I hope somebody can reason this one out.

hypermegachi

12-24-2004, 10:47 PM

i cap preflop with JJ.

i don't mind the flop play...it's either go to showdown or fold at this point...and i see you chose to go to showdown (only you didn't :P)

cap the turn. you have outs.

i agree given all the action your jack high flush is probably no good. tough fold.

this is a very good example of being sandwiched between 2 aggressors.

RunDownHouse

12-24-2004, 10:54 PM

Cap preflop, lead the flop. If there's a lot of action back to you on the flop, you can slow down and not cap, but speed back up and get as much in on the turn as you can. I'd check/call one on the river, anything more than that is a tough fold.

EvanJC

12-25-2004, 01:59 AM

folding on the river here is criminal.

Grisgra

12-25-2004, 02:04 AM

Nope, easy river fold. You're not ahead here nearly enough for it to be worth the call -- and a cap could be behind you (and it was).

JrJordan

12-25-2004, 02:24 AM

I appreciate all the responses. A few replies of my own.

Preflop: Is this regular knowledge to be capping with JJ out of position. I'm sure it's not much EV either way, but I have always thought it was a 3 bet hand. Perhaps at a shorthanded 6-max table I should give it some more value. Comments?

Flop: I think my action here depends on whether I cap preflop, as some people mentioned earlier. If I did cap, I think I'd bet out here as well. Having 3-bet instead, I think the c/r gives me a better idea of where I stand in the hand, as well as traps UTG for a bet. Obviously when UTG beats me to the c/r, I'm thrown into an awkward situation. Is this a possible place to fold? Seems awful weak-tight, but the checkraise from a passive UTG sure seems like a possible made hand and not a draw.

Turn: Many of you suggested that I ram and jam this turn after I hit the set. I don't see why this is necessarily a good idea. I have a pretty well defined image in my head of what the players have. What other hands can UTG have that he checkraises on both the flop (which he also caps) and the turn? He has been a relatively passive player too, so he's definitely not on a draw. The only slightly possible chance I'm ahead is if he flopped a set, which I doubt he'd checkraise again after the flop action and this very draw heavy board. Button like I said likely has a pocket pair like QQ+. Knowing this, I'm about 95% sure I'm behind when UTG checkraises this turn, and the only way I'm going to win is by filling up the boat. With 10 outs, I'm only winning this at 3:1. So why would I cap this turn when I'm only getting 2:1 on every bet I make? I'm getting better odds by just calling.

River: EvanJC mentioned that this river fold is criminal, however I don't agree with that at all. The button comes alive after I call, who I've previously put on an overpair (and now likely has a flush bigger than mine) and am then 3-bet by the same passive UTG. In the end I'd have to put in 3 bets to win 29. That means I need to win a little more than 1 in 9 to make this river call worthwhile. I'd hardly call this fold criminal because I doubt I win this 1 in 9 times.

Feel free to bash/agree with any opinions.

JrJordan

BradL

12-25-2004, 02:27 AM

Its a tough fold but it is hardly criminal .

-Brad

JrJordan

12-25-2004, 03:51 AM

Okay, looks like the "criminal" river fold was the exception rather than the rule. What do you guys think about my thoughts on the turn call vs. the ram and jam?

daryn

12-25-2004, 04:15 AM

i don't think the river is a tough fold AT ALL.

i would also cap preflop. the chances you have the best hand are just too great.

i would also be dying to throw $$$$ into the pot when i hit that set on the turn.

JrJordan

12-25-2004, 04:46 AM

Daryn,
Are you jamming this turn as well because you think you have the best hand enough of the time to warrant it, or am I missing something? I just can't imagine any other hand UTG could have other than a made straight/flush. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit for the 1/2 tables... would your thinking change at all if this was a typical passive 5/10 6-max?

wheelz

12-25-2004, 06:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit for the 1/2 tables...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is quite possible. I don't think UTG has to have a straight or flush to play like this. I don't know though... after he check-raises the flop AND the turn, I'd be worried too. But I know I'd have to 3-bet that turn myself.

I think the river fold is easy, I don't see the debate there.

JrJordan

12-25-2004, 02:04 PM

Thanks for the comments. At the showdown, button shows AsAd and UTG shows Ks2s. Perhaps my opinions on the turn are skewed because I know what they have, therefore I give them too much credit. Still, I'm not convinced that the turn cap is the best line.

EvanJC

12-25-2004, 05:59 PM

meh, only way i'd fold this river is if my ceiling fan fell on my head, knocking out and causing my hand to be folded.

EvanJC

12-25-2004, 06:03 PM

yeah, i guess at 1 to 9 it might be an okay fold. still not one i could make though...but i'm a calling station. still, this is one two six max after all, and i've seen some really strange things. and one to nine in a monster pot is sounding alright to me, although if you are really confident in your reads it might be a good fold.

EvanJC

12-25-2004, 06:10 PM

bah this post has been bugging me. you don't think utg (loose passive) turns over a low flush, possibly with the straight flush redraw, and button turning over a straight or set even one in nine? obviously the turn play makes this extremely unlikely, but i dunno. gosh this is tough, and criminal was too strong a word, but i stand by calling the river.

wheelz

12-25-2004, 08:13 PM

I don't understand why you think it's such a tough fold. Button plays real fast preflop and on the flop, slows down on the turn (looking like an overpair), then wakes up again on the river after the 4th flush card. He plays it exactly like a big pair with a big spade, and barring a read on him, I think you have to give him credit for exactly that here.