This is Why none of you morons make any money!

A few days ago LastChance posted a hand where he was sucked out on. I thought many would like to see this one from yesterday. LC is in the small blind and the game is 7 handed.


Game #109541846 - $15/$30 Hold'em - 2001/09/13-20:51:37 (CST)

Table "Butaritari" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button

Seat 2: floppedaces ($600 in chips)

Seat 3: mikeyrags14 ($388 in chips)

Seat 4: fireman4u ($1,022 in chips)

Seat 5: sponge ($416 in chips)

Seat 6: LastChance ($1,672.50 in chips)

Seat 7: Clinteroo ($510 in chips)

Seat 8: Richie76 ($283 in chips)


LastChance: Post Small Blind ($10)

Clinteroo: Post Big Blind ($15)

floppedaces: Post ($15)

fireman4u: Post ($15)


Dealing...

Dealt to Clinteroo [ 5d ]

Dealt to Clinteroo [ 6h ]

Richie76: Raise ($30)

floppedaces: Call ($15)

mikeyrags14: Fold

fireman4u: Call ($15)

sponge : Fold

LastChance: Call ($20)

Clinteroo: Fold


*** FLOP *** : [ Jc Js 4d ]


LastChance: Check

Richie76: Bet ($15)

floppedaces: Fold

fireman4u: Call ($15)

LastChance: Raise ($30)

Richie76: Call ($15)

fireman4u: Call ($15)


*** TURN *** : [ Jc Js 4d ] [ Jd ]


LastChance: Bet ($30)

Richie76: Call ($30)

fireman4u: Call ($30)


*** RIVER *** : [ Jc Js 4d Jd ] [ 7h ]

LastChance: Bet ($30)

Richie76: Call ($30)

fireman4u: Call ($30)


*** SUMMARY ***

Pot: $402 | Rake: $3

Board: [ Jc Js 4d Jd 7h ]

floppedaces lost $30 (folded)

mikeyrags14 didn't bet (folded)

fireman4u lost $120 [ 4s 2d ] (a full house, jacks full of fours)

sponge didn't bet (folded)

LastChance bet $120, collected $402, net +$282 (showed hand) [ 4h Jh ]

(four of a kind, jacks)

Clinteroo lost $15 (folded) [ 5d 6h ] (three of a kind, jacks)

Richie76 lost $120 [ As Tc ] (three of a kind, jacks)


Obviously the hand plays itself once you see the flop but how can he call before the flop from the small blind.

i'm sorry, did i suck out or something? its not like flop was 56A 1 heart and i called. WTF? i'm pretty sure i had odds on my side after the flop. perhaps long before you compare this to my post you should attempt to understand what logic is.


clinteroo, i have an idea. since you're on pp about once a month (after last months buyin limits expire) how about you play for the next couple days, max out your account again and we'll see if you post again here. the funny thing is, after you popped on last night at the 15/30 i pointed it out to several other regulars that take money from (k_rose, bobcards) that you were back online and how you must have gotten a buy in again. how very funny.


-LC.

the post i put on this board was about two undercards that 3 bet preflop hit a miracle runner runner vs top pair. and jackryan is still the worst player, he lost another coule buyins last night again.


all i did was protect a blind that hit. good comparison though chump. make sure you pop into my room in one week and say hi to me. if you dont i'll assume you went bust again.


-LC.

I looks like he's getting 23:4 odds on a call here (which is aboutt 6:1). Maybe it's a bit of a stretch, but it certainly isn't a big mistake, especially when you consider that he got paid off in two spots to the river. The Yutz who raised had ATo fer chrissake.

There were three full blind posts here. The BB and two others. That's a lot of random hands in the pot that are unlikely to hit. This gives LC an extra edge which makes calling with any paint suited correct I believe. Hitting hands like JJx, 44x and J4x in addition to the flush draw make this playable (plus he could hit a J and if he can read well enough win it sometimes--this is more likely since there are three blind hands besides his).

Since the SB is 2/3 of a small bet, I don't think LC made

a big mistake calling preflop..Im sure its close either way.


You will notice that a lot of successful players defend their

SB's pretty liberally, even at the $20-$40 limit, when

its only 1/2 a small bet.


The better you play/read the more you can defend it.


Im sure LC himself could post many beats that he put on

people that were worse then this....Its very common for

aggressive players to put moves on people, and actually

get lucky and stumble upon a winner by the river.


Also regarding his play of AJ off in EP on a previous post..


The truth is this play doesn't have that much expectation

either way (pos or neg).

Given normal game conditions, if you choose to routinely defend your small blind against a raise with hands like J4o, you will surely go broke.


Even if you consider that in this case, there were two blinds posters who could be holding random crap hands, YOUR hand is a crappy random hand too! J4o is not going to go anywhere from first position in a raised, 5 handed pot. Forget it. Calling a raise here is out of the question. You won't even close the betting as the big blind and the two posters can still act.


If anyone thinks they can win playing this way, especially in the Paradise Poker 15-30 table, they should seriously re-evaluate their game.


natedogg

you have to be kidding. look what he was called by. you will never win if you don't play the hand.

U CLAIM U POINTED OUT TO OTHER PLAYERS THAT CLINTEROO FOUND A BUY IN TO PLAY ONCE A MONTH OR SOME B.S. LIKE THAT EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE NO CHAT. ARE YOU ON MESSENGER!!!!!!! CALLING WITH THAT HAND MAKES ME THINK YOU CHEAT ON MESSENGER!!!!!

>Given normal game conditions, if you choose to routinely defend >your small blind against a raise with hands like J4o, you will >surely go broke.


I thought he had J4x...

are you a retard? of course i have some form of instant messenger, who doesnt? can you read my email, its aol...hmm, do i have message capabilites through that? dur hur, whats a computer?


so how does me calling with that hand make you think i cheat on messenger? a=b d<x so therefore you cheat on messenger? how did you draw that conclusion einstein?

are you a retard? of course i have some form of instant messenger, who doesnt? can you read my email, its aol...hmm, do i have message capabilites through that? dur hur, whats a computer?


so how does me calling with that hand make you think i cheat on messenger? a=b d>x therefor you must have cheated on that hand. how in the world did you draw that conclusion einstein?


-LC.

Yes, defending the small blind to a raise with well below average holdings would be a clear LEAK in ones game.


There is the mitigating factor that the other players in the game are so horrible that LC may simply be adjusting his game to the current environment, basically concluding that he can play ANY TWO cards preflop and then out play his opponents afterward.


I'll have to give LC the benefit of the doubt on what is likely a small mistake that went right, and assume he was playing the players not the cards.


The Irony of the J4o comment he made elsewhere is VERY VERY FUNNY though ;-)

The only true moron is you.

He had J4s and the two posters had already called. Only the big blind was acting behind him, and with $115 in the pot already and only $20 to call, I think he's ok. I mean, it's about 3% that he'll get 2pair or trips (or the boat he got), and about 11% that he'll get at least a 4-flush, which would pay off big when he hit it. I don't think you can compare this to the JackRyan play he posted before. Of course, I was watching JackRyan at $20-40 yesterday 3 bet preflop with J9s from 3rd position behind the big blind, so that seems to be a common theme with this guy...

IT SEEMS LIKE U WERE SUGGESTING THAT YOU TOLD OTHER(S) PLAYERS WHILE PLAYING AT PARADISE THAT CLINTEROO IS A BAD PLAYER. I WONDER HOW U DID THAT WITHOUT CHAT ON PARADISE!!!! U CANT CHAT ON PARADISE RETARD BECAUSE U ARE A SORE LOSER AND BITCH AND MOAN WHEN U LOSE. U MUST HAVE TOLD THEM THIS ON MESSENGER SO DO U CHEAT ON MESSENGER WITH THEM ALSO!!!!!! WHOOP THERE IT IS!!!


BTW YOUR PLAY WAS BAD YOU SHOULD HAVE FOLDED YOU GOT VERY LUCKY!! I THINK U ARE A SPOILED TRUST FUND BABY THAT WIRED A BUNCH OF CASH TO PARADISE. I WILL ADMIT YOU ARE GOOD 1ON1 BUT RING GAMES U SUCK.

"Also regarding his play of AJ off in EP on a previous post.. The truth is this play doesn't have that much expectation

either way (pos or neg). "


How do you know this? Please understand I'm not challenging your crediblility... but interensted in where one could read up on an individual hands expected value.....


thanks...


index

On online poker you make friends just as you do in a real card room. Then you talk to them. As long as you don't talk about the hands you're playing, what's the problem? If you don't have chat (like LC), messengers are the only way you can communicate. So what?


I'm sure that for everyone thats using a messenger to collude and cheat (of which the clear majority are losing players) theres five or ten people that are using it just to chat with friends.

There are simulation programs where you can measure the value of certain hands in different positions. You can adjust the player profiles to simulate game conditions. But it is very hard to be precise, because the texture of the game vastly changes the expected value of hands. It does provide a basis of understanding, though.


I'm not sure if you knew this, or even if this how the original poster came up with his statement, but that is how many hands are analyzed.

Using simulation.


Although Turbo Holdem has MANY weaknesses,

one of its overall strengths is determining the general

value of starting hand for different situations/positions.


Using a lineup that I though mimicked paradise $10-$20,

AJ offsuit was actually a slight WINNER utg opening

for a raise...


I could go on and on about the strenghts & weaknesses of

Turbo and the reasons why, but I won't....One thing I will say is that the value of starting hands is affected by what hands your opponents are willing to call a cold raise with,defend their blinds with,etc...But AJ is so neutral in this spot,

it hardly makes a difference...


When I go to the Medium Stakes Board, most of the top players

there, stress tight play in EP in live play. They even admit they probably play too tight. Some probably muck AQ upfront.


A lot of players in live games simply survive/win by having marginal to slightly above avg. post flop skills and "nit" their way preflop. When they play online against there fellow brothers, they cant figure out why they can't win. Ill tell you why...They are playing themselves...Thats why.


Im not saying that opening for a raise with AJ off is going to change anything..In fact, I throw it away too in this spot to avoid fluctuations!


But when people start acting like some starting hands will make you a big loser/put a BIG leak in your game: J4 suited for a raised multiway action when alreay 1/3 in already, AJ raise UTG.

They are wrong.


Figuring out what the value of certain hands have in different spots, will give you a big adv. I recommend you do it. In fact I have a starting hand sheet that I use based on the # of limpers,

which DS & MM's charts don't cover...

Let me preface this by stating I have never cheated in any online game - you probably won't believe that at the conclusion of this post.


Whether LC was cheating in this situation, I don't know. However, if you play poker on line you risk running into some type of cheat.


The essence of the situation comes down to this: Why do you play cards? TO MAKE MONEY!!!

If it is for any other reason (entertainment/etc), then play the free games!


To have a tool that will aid in putting money in your pocket, and not use it - some would call that person a fool.


Think about that the next time you type your CC# in to deposit more money!

You wrote, "I'm sure that for everyone thats using a messenger to collude and cheat (of which the clear majority are losing players) theres five or ten people that are using it just to chat with friends."


I can't recall ever reading a more rediculous post. Since you like to guess, I have a question: If you were to jump out of a building, which way would you fall? Up or down.


Tom D

"I can't recall ever reading a more rediculous post. Since you like to guess, I have a question: If you were to jump out of a building, which way would you fall? Up or down.


Tom D "


The most ridiculous post you've read? Wow.


What part was so absurd? I'm using ICQ. I have a few friends who use ICQ too and play Internet poker. On a few occassions we've sat at the same tables while the ICQ was active. Never did we say anything about hands we were involved in. Why would we? I've never cheated in games. I would probably not know how to use the information in a correct way and would lose if I went away from my usual strategy based on some other information. Never did anyone of my friends propose that we would share some info or cheat in any other way.


Maybe I don't understand what you mean. English isn't my first language.

Your English is very good. Your unsupported assumptions are very bad.


Why do you think the clear majority of cheaters are losers? You're guessing, and you're guessing wrong. Even if all they do is play best hand and share information, they have a big advantage. It seems you have accepted the myth that only morons cheat. That's dangerous thinking.


The other part of your post that I found insulting was your guessing that for every one cheater using instant messaging, there are between five and ten honest users. First off, I'm not sure how comforting that is, but what bothered me most, is that you just made up those numbers.


A little intellectual integrity doesn't hurt when dealing with adults.


Tom D