A non-winner asks...

I confess. I am down money over-all since playing internet poker. (Though there have to be others who are overall losers, as I cannot be the only one funding EVERYONE else on this board who all seem to be HUGE winners.)


I am determined to learn the game well enough to be a consistent winner - and I believe it is possible for anyone with the proper committment to do so. Some of us who aren't as bright as others need a bigger committment - but I believe I have that.


My question is:


What is the best way of finding the proper game(holdem', omaha)/stake/and competition to get to this point (assuming I am not completely hopeless at the game - or will at least become competent before I have to sell the dog). And how long, approx. for an average dolt to reach some level of proficiency?


thanks in advance.

imho, (btw, I'm a winner a pp, but not a HUGE one. lol)


It's not a matter of how much time, its a matter of how much work. Ever know someone who has owned a guitar for like 10 years, fiddles around with it all the time, and still can't play? Ever know someone who took lessons, practiced, and became damn good in just a few months? I'm sure you get my drift.


Here's a cut n paste I worte to a friend a while back:


**************************


if your serious about making money from poker you

_need_ to do three things.


1) read Hold em Poker for Advanced Players repeatedly.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1880685221


2) read Theory of Poker once or twice.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1880685000


3) Post a hand to talk about every other day or so on twoplustwo.com small

stakes forum. I know you probably feel shy about it, but you could make a

new psuedonym every time. I would love to then post my opinion in response,

and there are two great reasons for it: First, you will see some very good players

who will disagree with me on close decisions, and second, the act of writing it

up will help you think about hands. Check out this post I wrote last week, and

the great response it got:


http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/smallholdem.pl?read=11856


this is more elaborate than you need, most of the posts are simpler. In fact, if you

swipe and click the AKo hand, and take out the humor (which I liked, btw), you

might get some different opinions as to whether you should "always" 3bet with

AKo ( which i do), and whether you should drop to a 2 flush rag board.


***********


hope this helps,


zooey


p.s. I debated even adding this part, but I'll take a shot. Please know its given in a friendly, helpful spirit. Poker is a very humbling hobby. If you play angry, frustrated, or in a state of righteous indignation, you simply can't process info at the level needed to win. I add this because the sarcasm in your above post "EVERYONE else on this board who all seem to be HUGE winners") and the other "who the f*** can bother reading such a long transcript anyway - I will stick to the easier questions."

might suggest your emotions are getting in the way of learning. Think about it. Work on it. I still am.

I just posted some information on the beginners forum this morning that also applies to what you are asking. I'll repost some of it here with some modificaitons:


-----


When I first started I bought some beginning hold 'em books. I especially focused on Lee Jones's book. I thought I could beat the game and I played some on the 0.50-1, some on 1-2, and some on 2-4. I thought I was playing fairly well, but I kept loosing money.


Continual loss of money is usually an indication that you are not doing well, so I caught on to this and decided to do something about it.


I forced myself to only play on the 0.5-1 tables and I kept detailed records and reviewed my hand histories. I burned through yet another $100 during this period but learned some important things about my game.


The next $100 I put in was a different story. I popped that up to $300 while playing on the 0.5-1 tables then moved up to 1-2. I popped that up to $600 on the 1-2. I'm now working my way through the 2-4. I managed to get my win rate to several BB/hour on the 0.5-1 and 1-2 tables. I'm working on improving my win rate on the 2-4 (I'm up, but my win rate is not satisfactory yet.)


Notes on books:

I've found I've learned at least something from every book I've read, some more helpful than others. I find the more books I read, the more context I gain. One thing I noticed that you may notice as well. I found Jones's book to have good information for playing low limit, but following his strategies I just couldn't seem to "win." Then I read other books, like HPFAP and Theory of Poker. The more I read the more I realized that the problem wasn't with the strategies in Jones's book, but rather my understanding of them.


The big difference that turned my game around from losing to winning was when I made the transition from applying the strategies in Jones's book to understanding WHY and WHEN to apply the strategies. Jones gives some excellent advice, but he never really gets much into the WHY. Without knowing why you would want to do something, you can't win.


I suggest you get a few of these books if you haven't already. Read them, re-read them, and then study them some more. Try to UNDERSTAND poker and the various concepts. I'm sure I'm going to be "learning" poker my entire life as I think the good players never stop learning.

Another good book I forgot to mention was "The Psychology of Poker." This book is great because it analyzes different player types and helps you perform a self analysis. The books forces you to look at your own game and play style and understand what it is you are doing.

"I believe it is possible for anyone with the proper committment to do so"


I disagree. I have devoted my entire life and every waking moment to learning to play hold'em for about 15 months and am still a slight overall loser (around $300 down total). I have played countless hours of internet poker. I would say that a live game player couldn't possibly play as many hands of poker in a four year period of time that I have played since June 2000. I have read HPFAP and TOP so many times I think I could rewrite them from memory, not to mention about ten other books. I have a good understanding of probabilities (I aced stats in college). I have run innumerable simulations on Turbo Texas Hold'em trying to determine some sort of optimum strategy. I use PokerStat to try to find holes in my game, and weaknesses in my opponents play. I read the posts here religiously. In short, I doubt that any newcomer to the game of hold'em could "outwork" me over the last year and a half or so. I would have bet my life that I couldn't possibly fail to be a consistent winner if I gave it my best shot, after all I have never failed at anything else that I applied myself to. I have been proven wrong.


I think I am a break even player in the long run due to the fact that I swing up and down and always seem to get back to the upside eventually. I know what the difference is between me and the losers. I have worked harder than they have. I have no idea what the difference is between me and the winners. Maybe the winners have some rare quality that the rest of us are missing. Maybe it is just like the analogy of a million monkeys cutting cards and the last remaining few write books about how to become an expert card cutter. Maybe the winners cheat. Maybe they are psychic. Maybe they are no better than the rest of us but just have the bankroll to stay in the game. I am living proof that all the practice, study, and experience that you can devote to this game will not necessarily make you a winner (at least not in a year and a half).


My conclusion: you can have the proper committment and still not win.

I believe what you say but maintain that you are on the right path and will get there soon.

Regards,

Dave

Ps Luck comes and goes.

Why the dog?? Don't you have kids?? probly get more money fer em.

sincere thanks for the detailed responses - in fact, they are so good that I am going to print them out and save them. Zooey, and The Vegan, I will definitely take your advice and keep working.


thanks again.


b.h.

game selection is very important to winning..there are sites out there with 40-50% seeing the flop in a 10 handed game..make sure you are not trying to beat tight agressive games with 20% seeing the flop.hefap is the best poker book out there. Read it til the pages fall out. good luck