Cardinals sign David Eckstein

[Jim Kuhn]

Reports are for three years and he will lead off and play shortstop. Now for a second baseman..............

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u

[ThaSaltCracka]

no joke, I sorta wanted the M's to sign him. He should be a good fit for the Cards, a nice little .347 career OBP for the big boys.

edit: plus he has heart, right Andy?

[Paluka]

Interesting swap, Cards SS->Red Sox SS->Angels SS->Cards SS

[andyfox]

Any player who is little always seems to have "heart." He'll fit in well, though, I think, on that team, and with that manager.

[ThaSaltCracka]

the cards were probably the only team that didn't over pay.

You are right, interesting swap.

Okay, 3 year 10.25 mill,not bad.


This cracks me up.

Eckstein VORP 15.7 3yr/$10.25
Cabrera VORP 14.7 4yr/$40
Renteria VORP 27.3 4yr/$40

[Sooga]

Listen, I'm a huge Angels fan, and I loved Eckstein, but I had to face facts. He killed us last year. 'Heart' and 'Spunk' will only go so far in covering up a .671 OPS. We basically wasted 566AB's on him last year, when I'm sure that any other SS we could have picked up or promoted would have done better. He doesn't really steal bases anymore, doesn't get extra base hits (his SLG's never even been over .400!), and his BA is only gonna be about .280 or so. I would be very surprised to see Eckstein as a starter for the majority of his contract.

On the flipside, I know no one is going to confuse Cabrera's stats with Barry Bonds anytime soon, but Cabrera has some pop, and he's a defensive wiz, and I consider him a pretty big upgrade.

[Clarkmeister]

The hope on the StL message boards is that he will play 2nd base like he did in the minors in order to minimize the harm caused by his limited range.

[ThaSaltCracka]

In the AL Eckstein was the 9th best(based on VORP), Cabrera was 13th. Clearly Anaheim over payed Cabrera.


As far as SS go, there is a huge drop off after Tejada, Mike Young, G. Guillen, and Jeter, so I am not sure this is much of a upgrade at all for Anaheim, maybe defensively.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
The hope on the StL message boards is that he will play 2nd base like he did in the minors in order to minimize the harm caused by his limited range.

[/ QUOTE ]that would be a better idea. Who would play short though? Or are they going to go after someone else?

[Sooga]

if i recall correctly, VORP value durability and playing time. Since Cabrera played only 58 games with BOS last year, it follows that his AL 'playing time' would be affected, even though in reality he played a full year. You cannot possibly tell me that there are 12 SS's in just the AL whose VORP's would be better than someone hitting .294/.320/.465. Likewise, Eckstein was 9th simply because of his playing time, and he really didn't deserve that many AB's.

[ThaSaltCracka]

my bad, you are right, but his VORP in the NL was 5.3.


[ QUOTE ]
You cannot possibly tell me that there are 12 SS's in just the AL whose VORP's would be better than someone hitting .294/.320/.465.

[/ QUOTE ] no, its true, but there are several SS who have VORP's right below him, seperated by a point or two. Just checked, there are 4 people within one point below him.

[ QUOTE ]
Likewise, Eckstein was 9th simply because of his playing time, and he really didn't deserve that many AB's.

[/ QUOTE ] haha, this makes me laugh for some reason. he is so small. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Jim Kuhn]

The rumours for shortstop on the St Louis message boards include Larkin, Lugo and Luna.

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u

[andyfox]

Eckstein had the lowest OPS among American League shortstops and by far the lowest Range Factor. His Zone Rating (whatever the hell that is), however, was OK. Comparing him with Renteria:

Renteria: .728 OPS
Eckstein: .671

Renteria: 4.41 Range factor
Eckstein: 3.83

Renteria: .855 zone rating
Eckstein: .859

[Clarkmeister]

His OPS is relatively irrelevant considering he's going to be hitting leadoff with Walker/Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds behind him. He's roughly a career .350 OB% guy, higher than what Womack did last year in what was a career year. And with murderers row behind him, he's going to get lots and lots of good looks. One has to figure that he, like Womack, is in line for a new career high OB%.

Considering that he signed for a bit over 3mm instead of 8mm or 10mm and the Cards, unlike some teams, actually have a budget, he was an excellent value signing that filled 2 needs (leadoff, SS/2B).

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
His OPS is relatively irrelevant considering he's going to be hitting leadoff with Walker/Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds behind him. He's roughly a career .350 OB% guy, higher than what Womack did last year in what was a career year. And with murderers row behind him, he's going to get lots and lots of good looks. One has to figure that he, like Womack, is in line for a new career high OB%.

Considering that he signed for a bit over 3mm instead of 8mm or 10mm and the Cards, unlike some teams, actually have a budget, he was an excellent value signing that filled 2 needs (leadoff, SS/2B).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually hitting in that leadoff spot makes his OBP much much more relevant. Having a bad leadoff hitter on the Cards is a huge waste.

[Clarkmeister]

"Actually hitting in that leadoff spot makes his OBP much much more relevant"

That's kind of what I said, no? I mean, I talk about how it's about his OBP. My first sentence talks about how OPS is irrelevant, and it is, at least the "PS" part of the OPS. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
"Actually hitting in that leadoff spot makes his OBP much much more relevant"

That's kind of what I said, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh. I guess you should have said "the slugging pct component of his OPS is irrelevant". But that is true of almost every NL leadoff hitter because of the pitcher batting 9th.

[Sooga]

I'm not sure what the state of the Cards' minor league system is, but certainly there's gotta be someone they can promote. At this point, Eckstein has little to no value. No really valuable offensive skills, no really valuable defensive skills... I don't think it's much of a value signing.

[Clarkmeister]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't like Eck, got it.

Dude is a very consistent .340 OBP guy at a position where not tons of guys get that. He doesn't strikeout and can hit leadoff and steal 20 bases for a team currently without a leadoff hitter or a shortstop. It's a good fit. I would have been royally pissed if we had signed Cabrera or traded for Lugo.

[Sooga]

Whoa there, buddy.... I never said I hated Eck.

In fact, he, along with Erstad, were probably my two favorite Angels. Eckstein makes us short people feel like we can hang with the big boys. But this past season, I had to face facts. Eckstein was just flat-out horrible. Not just bad, horrible. There were probably a few guys in the league with worse numbers than Eck, but I doubt many of them got 566 AB's to show off their incompetence.

But I still love the guy. If everyone played like he did, baseball would be so much more fun to watch. I would love to see him put together a career year in STL this year. All I'm saying is that it doesn't look very likely, as his skills have been consistenly eroding the past 4 years.

[Clarkmeister]

His OBP has gone like this:

01 - .355
02 - .363
03 - .325
04 - .339

His range sucks, but his fielding % has gone up every year in the bigs. .988 last year. Not bad for $3mm in this market.

Compare him to Cabrera who's OBP look like this over the last 4 years:
01 - .324
02 - .321
03 - .347
04 - .307

And that's for $8mm/year. Yes, he hits for a better SLG and has better range. But all the Cards need Eck to do is get on base at the top of the order. Good solid relative value.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Clark, usually when a guys range factor decreases, his fielding % usually increases. I don't think thats really a good thing. If I was a STL fan I would like to see Eck either at 2b or have him come of the bench. It was a pretty cheap signing, so they could afford to do both.

[Jim Kuhn]

This is one of those deals where if you are a Cardinal fan you are looking at the value of the deal but Yankee and Red Sox fans look at the quality of the player. The Cardinal's have 'a budget'. Along the same lines I was surprised that the Red Sox were usually 'rooted for' by about 2/3 of the fans. I would have thought more fans would have favored the Cardinals. The Cardinals payroll was around 80 million while the Red Sox payroll was around 120 million. So much for rooting for the underdog!

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Along the same lines I was surprised that the Red Sox were usually 'rooted for' by about 2/3 of the fans.

[/ QUOTE ]

People love to root for losers.

[Jim Kuhn]

The Cardinals can NOT afford a 3 million dollar bench player!

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u

[ThaSaltCracka]

three year 10.5 mill right? I thought it was like 1.5 year one, 3.5 year two, 4.5 mill 3rd year or somthing like that?

[Clarkmeister]

Probably is. Cards love to backload deals and I'm sure Eck would be amenable to it considering the value and length of the deal. As an example, Izzy is making 12.5m this year, the last of his deal.

[ThaSaltCracka]

well, if he starts, and puts up a OBP around .350, it will be a good signing, and a good value IMO.

[Jim Kuhn]

For 3.5 million - he will start! Probably at SS, maybe at 2b depending on other signings.

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u

[andyfox]

And he has heart. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Seriously, I think he's a good fit. You're right in pointing out that what drags down his OPS is his lack of slugging, his OBP has been reasonable. His value as a lead=off hitter is higher than the numbers show, too, because while he doesn't walk all that much, he does foul off tons of pitches. He stole 16 out of 21 last year, and he's a smart baserunner. He'll score more runs than Womack did last year.

How bad will losing Matheny hurt the Cards?

[Clarkmeister]

Losing Matheny was a non-event. The organization thinks that the young Molina kid is going to be a perennial all-star, and even though he's young for a catcher at 23 yrs, they think he's ready now.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
because while he doesn't walk all that much, he does foul off tons of pitches.

[/ QUOTE ]I just checked he is a career 3.79 #P/PA, dang thats pretty good.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
People love to root for losers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, Dave, I agree with the Eckstein signing, but since you're taking potshots at the idiots, here's what a Mr. Luft over at SI.com had to say when he ranked your boys 16th in the power rankings...

[ QUOTE ]
In case the Cardinals missed it, the license plate of that truck that ran them over says "RED SOX." After sweeping St. Louis in the World Series, Boston came around for another pass and took its All-Star shortstop, Renteria. What will the chowds take next, the Arch?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif Merry Christmas buddy!

NT

[Clarkmeister]

Since it was an either or proposition, I'm pretty happy with Eckstein and Mulder instead of Renteria and no one. But congradulations on becoming that which you hate.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Losing Matheny was a non-event. The organization thinks that the young Molina kid is going to be a perennial all-star, and even though he's young for a catcher at 23 yrs, they think he's ready now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Molina is ready, but losing Matheny is a non-issue. He doesn't catchnearly aswell as his reputation and hits like a AA hitter.

Pierz and torrealba are so much better than matheny it's not funny.