From a Nit: Unethical Angle or Legitimate Play

[schroedy]

Live game $6/$12, 7 Stud (High Only). Hero makes Kings up on 4th after completing on 3rd with a K showing. Villian is working on a diamond flush apparently (two diamonds up on 4th, limp call on 3rd) even though 4 diamonds outside of his hand are dead by 5th.

When blanks hit on 5th and 6th HERO continues to bet into the presumed draw. On 7th, as is his default, HERO checks (Kings up went unimproved, but HERO's default is to check either way).

VILLIAN checks 7th street, makes a show of being excited and bets. HERO reluctantly calls "for the size of the pot."

VILLIAN announces "Flush" without showing. HERO waits. VILLIAN turns over his hole cards, including the 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif for no pair, Q high. VILLIAN make a point to act "surprised" to see that the 10 is a /images/graemlins/heart.gif not a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. HERO says, "Can't beat a flush, but I do have Kings up."

As he is stacking chips it occurs to HERO that he is pretty damn sure the whole thing was a ploy to try and get him to muck without waiting to see the winner.

The question is: Is VILLIAN a sleaze-ball or is his play a legitimate or quasi-legitimate extension of his river bluff?

[Spook]

deliberately miscalling your hand is a penalty. This seems very deliberate.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

deliberately miscalling your hand is a penalty. This seems very deliberate.




[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. A scumbag move.

Mike Emery

[jon_1van]

If this happens to you be a dick about it. Make the other guy feel like a scumbad. The table will back you.

But I have remembered my hand incorrectly before...only to realize I'm a moron when I look at all down cards on the river again.

[timmer]

simple mistake or a scumbag angle, it really doesnt matter . What matters is seeing for yourself that you are beat before releasing your hand. And never releasing a winning or uncalled hand until any opposing hand is facedown in the muck.

If you always do these two things you will thwart many many angle attempts on the river.

Another tip is to wait a sec or two untill the leaders action is crystal clear before making your action.

It helps to always make sure you know what consitutes a check in your game. I like to wait till I hear the word "check" stated in turn.

If the dealer says that a pat on the table consitutes a check I ask him if he is going to pay for my calls from his pocket if I check it back to a pat and then I am bet into.

When they say "No" I tell them. "a check to me is the word check stated in turn". Beleive it or not the dealers main interest is in covering their own ass not yours.

I was angled upon by a guy who bitched about someone making this same angle on him. My fault it worked for him because I didnt wait for a second or two after a "pat" during a "friendly" 1-2 home game.

Waiting a few seconds untill the leaders actions are clear stops most of these angles.

If angled on by "the old check-bet" I always summon the floor person and describe the incident in my own words as I saw it. I dont let the dealer or the opponent describe it for me. Even if I have to get up and go back to the office the floor will get my side of the incident straight from me. If that doesnt get it done the general manager will get it written on a complaint form. Which incidentally are taken very seriously by the upper casino management.

I never take the angle shooter head on, I let the floor do that. I dont kick them hard under the table with my workboots anymore either. I dont threaten them because then they will just play the wounded sparrow. Even though these cowardly worms will usually run the other way if they see you coming after that, this only shuts them down on your shift. It doesnt put them out of buisness which is really what you want.

If the floor gives you the brush just find another place to play if thats an option or file a "letter" on him. As a result he will take you seriously next time.

You need to be on guard all the time if you want to avoid being angled on.

timmer

[nate1729]

I vote "angle."

And by the way, there has got to be a nicer way to do this:

[ QUOTE ]
If the dealer says that a pat on the table consitutes a check I ask him if he is going to pay for my calls from his pocket if I check it back to a pat and then I am bet into.

When they say "No" I tell them. "a check to me is the word check stated in turn". Beleive it or not the dealers main interest is in covering their own ass not yours.


[/ QUOTE ]

Casino rules don't apply if dealers don't want to pay for mistakes out of their own pockets? You going to require two forms of I.D. before you call a bet? After all, you seem to think you can make up your own rules...

[timmer]

then ask the poker room manager.

If you find one that likes the pat, knock, or chip tap, rather than a verbal "check" you have found one that has loads of angles to review.

the end all be all is a verbal "check" stated, in turn.

If you do this you will never be accused of shooting an angle. If you demand this you never will have these types of angles shot at you.

But by all means do and except whatever you feel comfortable with.

timmer

[nate1729]

Understood, but if the cardroom's official policy is that rap/tap equals check, are you going to not accept nonverbal checks?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi schroedy:

Villian is a low life. However, the rule in most cardrooms is cards speak, so he can get away with a play like this. However, if he does this sort of thing with some regularity, the cardroom should throw him out.

Best wishes,
Mason

[timmer]

usually Ill wait two seconds then ask. Although the pause is the most important part of the device.

Ill sometimes ask the player to simply say check.

If he refuses I give him the two second stall then ask" are you checking" ?

The real key is to fix a solid affirmation of his intentions in the eyes of the dealer who may be looking at or doing something else his job requires during the sometimes vague hand motion.

IF I could convince every player to simply say "check" I would. This would completely end this type of angle. But some people insist on being difficult.

One personality trait I have seen among all angle shooters I have encountered is they tended towards being a bit scurvy in appearance and/or lacking in physical hygiene.

Perhaps that’s why Mike Caro said " Boil " then "Eat"

[Andy B]

I usually don't speak during the play of a hand. This makes me difficult?

As for what actually happened, hero did well to hang onto his cards until he saw that he was beaten. I essentially never release my hand until the other guy shows a winner.

What concerns me most is that his default is to check Kings-up on the river. If the other guy can only be drawing to a flush, this makes sense. You get raised if he hits, and you don't get paid off if he misses. The fact that he had four flush cards out on fourth suggests that he has something else, in which case a value bet is called for.

And yeah, the guy's a scumbag.

[patrick dicaprio]

why is there even a question about this?? of course it is unethical.

Pat

[scrapperdog]

I have misread my hand while actually looking at the cards on-line. You did what u were supposed to, dont let go of hand until u see a better hand. I would say 50% chance this was an accident, when are they gonna make cards with 4 color deck hehe.