OESFD on monotone board.

[partygirluk]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1365)
BB (t2545)
UTG (t1140)
MP1 (t4100)
MP2 (t1120)
CO (t1180)
Hero (t2050)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t200.

Flop: (t650) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t650</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t1300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1750?

Standard?

[UMTerp]

Not a situation I love to be in, but yes, standard. I'd have played it the same way, with one exception (and this is nitpicking). I'd have flat-called the flop raise on the off-chance that he'll check the rest of the hand down should you miss both of your draws, to save you some chips. Should you hit the straight draw, put them in and there's a 95%+ chance he'll pay you off anyway.

[kfan]

I don't like getting involved with the only stack that can beat you, especially with the draw that you have. Though you have an open ended flush draw, there are three hearts on the board, which significantly hurts your number of clean outs compared with an OESFD on a board with two hearts. This makes anyone with the Kh or Ah an approx 65:35 favorite.

Let's look at the line that the BB took. He called your preflop raise, and then checkraised you basically all in. The only hand that you can hope to be up against seems to be KJ, AJ, QJ (eh) w/ no hearts. I think all other hands the BB can have beat you. I think that a smaller flop bet would be in order, maybe 400 or so. I think I would fold to the reraise that seems to be asking for a call, but perhaps I'm too weak tight.

edit: i can't spell.

[citanul]

I think that this hand is more interesting than it's getting credit for. I haven't been able to gather my thoughts on it quite yet.

I've been able to give myself pretty convincing arguments for:

betting less on the flop
betting that amount on the flop
pushing on the flop
checking behind on the flop

I think that I probably like pushing and checking behind the most at the moment, but this has been changing all day. I think I like betting about 300 or so a lot more than I like betting the pot.

Anyway, I hope I get to come back to this thread and talk about it more later.

citanul

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
checking behind on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the best play in this scenario. You have to ask yourself, what situation am I ahead if I get played back at? The only way you're ahead if you get played back at, is if the BB is on a weaker draw. Given the stack sizes, and the size of the pot the BB should know that their fold equity is quite low. So, why check raise without actually having a hand?

This is the time to take a free card. You've got K high right now, and getting involved in the action may cost you the rest of your stack. See the turn, act from there.

[Bigwig]

Incidentally, I don't like the bet of 650. Push or put out a feeler, like Citanul said, of 300.

[partygirluk]

I have a monster draw. I should be happy to get it all in on the flop vs. some JT type hand right?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a monster draw. I should be happy to get it all in on the flop vs. some JT type hand right?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a 52-48 favorite over JT. Is that monstrous?

This would be different if you held the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Seriously, that one card makes a huge difference. If your opponent had K /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif, you're almost a 3:1 dog.

I don't mind your bet post flop with a deeper stack. What I'm saying is that the pot is already greater than 1/3 of your stack. Why not get a free card and see where you stand? If it's checked again after the turn, you bet and take the pot down almost everytime. If you get an offsuit 9--beautiful!

[Bigwig]

BTW, after you did bet the flop, and were reraised, you must push this sucker. You made the right move there. I'm just advocating checking the flop.

KQ sucks in raised pots. Play it carefully.

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a monster draw. I should be happy to get it all in on the flop vs. some JT type hand right?

[/ QUOTE ]

JT is a coinflip with you. That is almost the best you can hope for. The thing is that you are going to make your draws half the time. And you are still going to lose. Your straights lose to baby flushes and your flushes to bigger flushes. This is not a strong hand. Now if you had KQ hearts and on the flop the 6 was a diamond, you would have a hand to be pushing with. That hand looks similiar to this one but it is totally different as far as your chances of winning

[kfan]

I don't really understand the reasoning for pushing on the flop. Not only do you risk your entire stack against the only person that can bust you, but you also gain no information about the opponent's hand. Why risk it when you can throw out a bet of 400 or so? If he calls, you can put him on a draw, if he reraises you all in, you can fold. And of course he can always fold.

I don't see why an all in here would be a good move. I doubt the increase in folding equity makes up for the information gained and risk avoided by a smaller bet.

[partygirluk]

OK, here was my thinking.

Preflop: Every folds to me, I am on the button, lets steal the blinds. Ah, I actually have an OK hand. Bonus.

Flop: This is a pretty darn nice flop for me, the pot is 1/3 of my stack and I would very much like it. It must be rather scary for him, so I will pot bet it and if he folds, good and if he calls, that is good too.

After getting raised on the flop: I have to go either all in or fold. My hand is way too good to fold, therefore I will go all in.

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, here was my thinking.

Preflop: Every folds to me, I am on the button, lets steal the blinds. Ah, I actually have an OK hand. Bonus.

Flop: This is a pretty darn nice flop for me, the pot is 1/3 of my stack and I would very much like it. It must be rather scary for him, so I will pot bet it and if he folds, good and if he calls, that is good too.

After getting raised on the flop: I have to go either all in or fold. My hand is way too good to fold, therefore I will go all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

First 2 seem about right. Ideally you can bet the flop with a few less chips but if you always bet the pot, that isn't the end of the world. This will win you the pot a most of times.

When he calls or reraises you, you have to reconsider you hand. There is probably a 20-30% chance of bluff/pair/2 pair and the rest of the time you are up against a made flush or a nut flush draw (semibluff).

So after all this discussion, how did it turnout?

[citanul]

The line "you're playing against the only stack who can bust you" is entirely overused. Specifically, in this instance, it is used and incorrect. There are two stacks that can bust you.

650 chips would add 1/3 to your stack. That is not an insignificant amount to take down. The opponent folding is probably the result you want the most, and so pushing may very well the best line, if it is not checking behind.

Glad to see there has started to be more discussion on the hand.

I think I didn't actually answer the question before: Once you have bet 640, and are checkraised, I believe you have to push when raised.

I'm guessing that you lost to either a naked Ah, or Ahx that paired the board?

citanul

[kfan]

[ QUOTE ]
The line "you're playing against the only stack who can bust you" is entirely overused. Specifically, in this instance, it is used and incorrect. There are two stacks that can bust you.

650 chips would add 1/3 to your stack. That is not an insignificant amount to take down. The opponent folding is probably the result you want the most, and so pushing may very well the best line, if it is not checking behind.

Glad to see there has started to be more discussion on the hand.

I think I didn't actually answer the question before: Once you have bet 640, and are checkraised, I believe you have to push when raised.

I'm guessing that you lost to either a naked Ah, or Ahx that paired the board?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for explaining your reasoning

-kfan

[partygirluk]

He had A3 of hearts.

[david050173]

[ QUOTE ]
The line "you're playing against the only stack who can bust you" is entirely overused. Specifically, in this instance, it is used and incorrect. There are two stacks that can bust you.

650 chips would add 1/3 to your stack. That is not an insignificant amount to take down. The opponent folding is probably the result you want the most, and so pushing may very well the best line, if it is not checking behind.

Glad to see there has started to be more discussion on the hand.

I think I didn't actually answer the question before: Once you have bet 640, and are checkraised, I believe you have to push when raised.

I'm guessing that you lost to either a naked Ah, or Ahx that paired the board?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like pushing since I don't think there are a lot of hands that will fold to a push but not to a half to pot sized bet? I assume if he had something think AJ (no heart) he would have bet out on the flop. If he had had a3 of spades, he would have folded quickly to the pot sized bet.

As far as pushing to the reraise, you know that is going to get called. There is no folding equity. So you are sitting with 1100 chips and need to decide if you want to play this to the end. If you fold, you still have a playable stack with 4 others about the same size. However if you win, you have a huge stack.

I think the only way I lay this down is because he minicheck raised with very shallow stacks. To me that is a sign to play cautiously and suspect he has the flush. If he had pushed I would have placed him on the nut flush draw and then you probably have enough outs to call. I think most of the time I end up calling but being very unhappy about it.