Fire + You

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

Is it ever correct to set ones self on fire (to the point of death)? Is there any realistic situation that would call for such drastic messures? Religous/political oppression? Proving a huge point? Fear of not being on fire?

[jakethebake]

I've never been able to figure that one out. Or the hunger strike thing either. I mean do these guys say, "I'll show them! I'll set myself on fire. That'll teach them!"???

Morons.

[jakethebake]

On the other hand, maybe if someone already set you on fire, then you should fight fire with fire to put it out. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never been able to figure that one out. Or the hunger strike thing either. I mean do these guys say, "I'll show them! I'll set myself on fire. That'll teach them!"???

Morons.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

The 2 people that answered yes, please give some sort of reasoning..... I just cant see there being ANY real life senerio where killing yourself in a very painful manor could be a good thing.

Obviously in doing so you could impact the minds of a lot of people, but that doesnt justify such acts does it?

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
The 2 people that answered yes, please give some sort of reasoning..... I just cant see there being ANY real life senerio where killing yourself in a very painful manor could be a good thing.

Obviously in doing so you could impact the minds of a lot of people, but that doesnt justify such acts does it?

[/ QUOTE ]
You're asking for reasoning from someone that would set themselves on fire? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

Im asking for any realstic situation that would make setting yourself on fire correct.

The way i see it, its not open to debate. Is there some reason to jump into a meat grinder? NO!

[dtbog]

Setting yourself on fire just seems so -EV to me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

(I mean, sure, you can catch runner-runner, but I think you'd definitely be going in with the worst hand here...)

-DB

[bonanz]

the only thing good about setting yourself on fire is that you can run faster, don't run out of turbo, can hit your jump shots better, and perform some pretty wicked dunks

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
the only thing good about setting yourself on fire is that you can run faster, don't run out of turbo, can hit your jump shots better, and perform some pretty wicked dunks

[/ QUOTE ]

you can goaltend too

[beerbandit]

i think that would hurt to much for me -- i guess im just a pussy


cheers

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
i think that would hurt to much for me -- i guess im just a pussy


cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

i think it would actually be less painful than youd think. Although still rediculasly painful. About as painful as my spelling is to daryns eyes.

[dr. klopek]

Piz...and I got into this argument when I put up my new avatar. In the case of Thich Quang Duc:

the first link I found (http://www.singingmountain.org/thich-quang-duc.html)

the second one (http://http://www.geocities.com/tcartz/sacrifice.htm)

I don't think that this can be dismissed as some lunatic with no grip on reality or concept of what he's doing. Misguided maybe, but his resolve, discipline, faith and self-control are un [censored]-withable.

[Niwa]

I don't see the point in setting yourself on fire. If you need to prove a point its better and easier to do that alive /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
...but his resolve, discipline, faith and self-control are un [censored]-withable.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you figure? If I [censored] with him he'll set himself on fire? That's a real deterrent for me? Actually it sounds like some good wholesome family entertainment. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Piz...and I got into this argument when I put up my new avatar. In the case of Thich Quang Duc:

the first link I found (http://www.singingmountain.org/thich-quang-duc.html)

the second one (http://http://www.geocities.com/tcartz/sacrifice.htm)

I don't think that this can be dismissed as some lunatic with no grip on reality or concept of what he's doing. Misguided maybe, but his resolve, discipline, faith and self-control are un [censored]-withable.

[/ QUOTE ]


from first link....

[ QUOTE ]
"There are many lessons to be learned from reading "The Pentagon Papers:"

1. Don't believe half of what the government tells you, especially if it involves the military or issues of "national security." The government would rather you heard lies than the complex and often dirty truth.

2. Don't believe the media either -- because they have hidden interests as well that keep them in bed with both the government and the corporations that underwrite their programming.

3. Push for open, democratic, civilian- (as opposed to military-) controlled government.

4. Do away with the manipulation of government by corporations and the wealthy.

5. Enact mandatory public funding of elections.

Did you get all that? If we even get close to such a democratic utopia, the long-awaited thousand-year reign of peace will be at hand."

[/ QUOTE ]

NOPE! (we will always be [censored], no matter how democratic we get)


While this link has some relevant info, its just too hippyish to count for anything.

[dr. klopek]

Those links are purely for background info, I doubt that many people know what I'm talking about when I say "Thich Quang Duc." Which, by the way, I'm glad that I don't have to actually say.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Those links are purely for background info, I doubt that many people know what I'm talking about when I say "Thich Quang Duc." Which, by the way, I'm glad that I don't have to actually say.

[/ QUOTE ]
My initial reaction was, "Which Quang Duc?". /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MelchyBeau]

i clicked no but I guess there could be a circumstance where it would be the right thing to do, however it probably would never happen.

If a man gave you a choice, setting yourself on fire, or him killing your entire family. I doubt this situation would ever arise though.

But for politcal reasons? no. Look how much attention a guy dressed up in a batman suit got when he climb on the wall of Buckingham palace.


Melch

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
If a man gave you a choice, setting yourself on fire, or him killing your entire family. I doubt this situation would ever arise though.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know for a fact it wont arise. Plus, what if your family is crappy?

[GuyOnTilt]

Plus, what if your family is crappy?

What if they're not? Your question is if it would ever be correct.

PS. I was the first one to vote Yes.

GoT

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, what if your family is crappy?

What if they're not? Your question is if it would ever be correct.

PS. I was the first one to vote Yes.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]
And what were the circumstances under which you were thinking when you voted?

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, what if your family is crappy?

What if they're not? Your question is if it would ever be correct.

PS. I was the first one to vote Yes.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

well, first off i asked if there is any real life situation.

clearly this would NOT happen in real life.

2nd, why? please give me one example of a realistic real life situation that could or has occured where settiong yourself on fire is the best play (or even +EV at all).

[GuyOnTilt]

And what were the circumstances under which you were thinking when you voted?

Actually the very first thought that popped into my mind when I read the question was if I was in a position where either I had to set myself on fire and die or someone I truly loved would be killed. The next was if I were in a combustible gas filled room with a man whose death would mean more than my living and I had a lighter, e.g. if there was a guy who had the means and will to detonate a high payload bomb in a metropolitan area on his person and was about to do so momentarily. Flicking the lighter would most certainly be justifiable. There are many others I'm sure of course. In any situation where someone felt a cause was more important than their life and setting himself on fire would do more to further that cause than anything they could do in life or any other means of death, then I have nothing but the utmost respect for them. The fact that the vast majority of people value their own well-being above all else doesn't mean selfless causes or acts, even acts of death, aren't justifiable.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

clearly this would NOT happen in real life.

And by 'not' you mean 'most likely not'.

GoT

[LondonBroil]

http://www.singingmountain.org/buddhist-on-fire-1.jpg

[dr. klopek]

GoT, you are correct, and at least we know it.

It seems that Most people (in particular, ones that place posting on a gambling site among their priorities, myself included) do not posess the empathy required to understand this. All outlandish fictional circumstances aside, In the case of Thich Quang Duc, a person with strong religious beliefs (think what you will about religion, that's not the point), It becomes almost a duty to commit an act that values your life less than the good of others. People have been getting executed for their religious beliefs for thousands of years, are they supposed to deny everything that they believe to save their lives? Not saying it's the same thing, but you get the point. When you have faith in something so much that you would sacrifice your life for it when you saw that it was necessary, it takes admirable resolve to carry that out.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

GoT, i said REALISTIC situation.

I think that killing yourself to help the wellfare of another can be corect. However, BURNING yourself to make a statement (no matter how [censored] the situation you or your people are in) is pointless and if anything gives power to the opperssor.

Also, after you are dead... and everyone who knew you is dead.... what is the point? The point of life is to experience, and you cant do that when dead.

Now dont get me wrong... that guy is a SAVAGE and has huge balls and reslove and all that and i have much respect for him, however he still made a very poor play. Where sklansky? hell prove my point using reverse implied odds im sure....

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
GoT, you are correct, and at least we know it.

It seems that Most people (in particular, ones that place posting on a gambling site among their priorities, myself included) do not posess the empathy required to understand this. All outlandish fictional circumstances aside, In the case of Thich Quang Duc, a person with strong religious beliefs (think what you will about religion, that's not the point), It becomes almost a duty to commit an act that values your life less than the good of others. People have been getting executed for their religious beliefs for thousands of years, are they supposed to deny everything that they believe to save their lives? Not saying it's the same thing, but you get the point. When you have faith in something so much that you would sacrifice your life for it when you saw that it was necessary, it takes admirable resolve to carry that out.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good point. I agree w/ you 100% However, i dont think setting himself on fire solved anything. My point is: setting yourself on fire will not ever help youreself or the good of others, in ANY REAL SITUATION.

Hitler would have done the world a great deed if he burned himself alive. Maybe thats an execption.

[GuyOnTilt]

The point of life is to experience

That may be your point for your life, but don't shove that statement on others. Many people live their lives with a different perspective. I am one of them.

GoT

[tolbiny]

GoT has already mentioned this, but i will reiterate-
You are assuming that your reasons for living are "correct" and that anyone violating your reasons is "incorrect". For some the most that they could achieve would be to leave a lasting impression on the world about the horrors of war. Think about how much influence that one person with that one act has achieved over the past 30 years. If that is how he valued his life, who are you to say otherwise?

[The once and future king]

I bet that guy was hard to tilt.

I have studied the meditation technique (Vipassana) that that monk was probably using to withstand the pain of self immoliation. Helps my game no end.

As for setting yourself on fire. Only as a last resort if you are freezing to death.

[jakethebake]

The point is that there are much better ways of helping others than this. If this is the best he can come up with to help others then he's stupid. Not saying he's not incredibly disciplined and courageous, but still stupid.

[The once and future king]

You have to remember that as far as he is concerned his own life or present incarnation is totaly transcient.

He dosnt have the same concepts of identity or mortality that you have.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to remember that as far as he is concerned his own life or present incarnation is totaly transcient.

He dosnt have the same concepts of identity or mortality that you have.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which STILL doesn't adress the fact that this doesn't help anyone.

[The once and future king]

He did it as a protest against the Vietnam war.

The fact that his image and action is still being discussed here 30 years later means his action has had some impact.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
He did it as a protest against the Vietnam war.

The fact that his image and action is still being discussed here 30 years later means his action has had some impact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just about the same post I was about to make.

That monk sure got your attention, didn't he?

[chabibi]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, what if your family is crappy?

What if they're not? Your question is if it would ever be correct.

PS. I was the first one to vote Yes.

GoT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



well, first off i asked if there is any real life situation.

clearly this would NOT happen in real life.

2nd, why? please give me one example of a realistic real life situation that could or has occured where settiong yourself on fire is the best play (or even +EV at all).

[/ QUOTE ]

there are reports from iraq that the insurgents/terrorists hold Iraqi civilians' famlies hostage and wont release the family unless the family member suicide bombs american soldiers
its pretty similar

[Thythe]

[ QUOTE ]
Fear of not being on fire?

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be an unfortunate fear.