Capped 4-ways, holding a small PP

[wheelz]

All comments on this hand greatly appreciated.

All I have to say about this table is that it got pretty LAGtastic. BB is the biggest LAG of them all, while the CO has been playing pretty tightly.

PokerChamps 5/10, 5-handed
Hero is UTG with 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="red"> Hero raises, CO 3-bets, </font> Button folds, SB calls, <font color="red"> BB caps,</font> all call

Flop (16 SB) 10 7 5r
SB checks, <font color="red"> BB bets, </font> Hero calls, <font color="red"> CO raises, </font> SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls

Turn (11 BB) J
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="red"> CO thinks for a minute then bets, </font> BB calls, Hero folds

Where do you fold? Do you fold at all?

[Phil Van Sexton]

Fold pre-flop.

[jrobb83]

Fold on the flop. With that action from 3 different players, I'm playing to flop a set or fold. The likelihood of a higher pair is simply too high to invest bet after bet to see the showdown. And even if all they had were overcards, their combination of outs gives you the reverse implied odds necessary to dump it on the flop. You simply threw away 1 BB on the flop IMO.

[wheelz]

I know, of course as soon as I called the flop I knew I was an idiot for doing it... but the BB's lagginess and the size of the pot suckered me into calling (this guy sporadically raises UTG at full tables with 84s or q3 off and calls it "bluffing".)

Ah well.

[wheelz]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually fold 66 UTG, but it was only 5-handed and the other players were really weak, so I decided to play it.

[Phil Van Sexton]

I guess I just don't understand raising out of position with 66 here. What are you trying to accomplish with this? Maybe you are trying to get the tight player to fold. I'd rather he stay in when my only real hope is to flop a set.

If they were calling stations, I'd call pre-flop and try to flop a set cheaply. Since you say they are loose-aggressive, getting raised by one of the 4 players behind me is fairly likely. This would make me and my 66 quite sad, therefore I fold in this spot.

Am I missing something?

[wheelz]

The CO and button hadn't played a hand in a while; they were pretty tight players. The SB was loose, but sensible, and didn't get out of line against me very often (we've played together a lot). The BB liked to play anything.

I was fully expecting my 66 to be the best hand, and have either blind defend with junk. I really wasn't anticipating a raise behind me, or multi-way action.

I guess my original post was misleading. The table hadn't been THAT crazy up to this point. Only the players in the SB and BB in this hand were the laggy ones, and even then they'd open with a lot of hands, but their 3-betting standards weren't that bad. After this hand though, things went haywire.

[Freakin]

I think the first preflop raise is fine (based on table, etc), but I'd fold when it's 2 more bets back to me. Calling that flop bet is really bad, and you should have definitely folded there since you didn't fold preflop.

Freakin

[helpmeout]

Fold preflop, this is too weak to raise, especially on a laggy table.

Fold on the flop against that much action preflop and 2 overcards to your pair, only a backdoor straight and possible raises after you, you have to fold.

[ALL1N]

Guys, leave the preflop alone. 66 is a fine openraise in CO+1 in most games, and folding when it gets back would be horrendous.

Yes, fold the flop.

[wheelz]

I didn't think the preflop was that bad myself...

But yeah I know I should've folded the flop. And yeah of course I only posted the hand because the river went check, check after a blank fell and they both showed AK and split the pot.

But I know better than to be results oriented... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Really though, I knew I was supposed to fold the flop, but my gut told me I had a shot at this pot with 66. So then I wasted 1 BB so I could fold the winner on the turn. Good work wheelz.

[ChessMan]

I think folding the flop is the right move. However, if BB is prone to betting with nothing but overcards, then I think you can consider raising.

[wheelz]

Of course now that I saw their hands, I wish I raised the flop bet. But obviously, due to the flop action, I was expecting to be against a higher pair. I do think everyone was too quick to assume since the pot was capped preflop with so many players in, someone had to have an overpair, though. It was the LAG who capped it. I wonder if maybe raising the flop is a possibility here. Would've still lost the one BB, but would've been 100% sure whether I was against an overpair or not.

I know the LAG will cap preflop with AK here and bet his overcards on the flop, and the CO could easily be 3-betting AK or AQ preflop. After he raised the flop bet though, I was sure he had a pair... that part of the hand definitely took me by surprise. I guess he realized what the BB was doing before I did.

edit: I do still think folding the flop is the correct play here though.

[naphand]

Hero is getting 17:1 to call one bet on the flop, he has a PP with a raggy board which will have missed big overcards, he also has an open-ended 3-straight, he may even have the best hand. The likelihood of opponent raising is more of a consideration here, in terms of how it damages his implied odds, than anyone has discussed yet. When it is raised and back to him on the flop he is getting 21:1 which makes this an easy call to see the Turn and spike a set or a 4 for a scratchy re-draw (but worth it with a pot this size).

I think, given his draws 17:1 is not entirely unreasonable for a call on the flop. This hand is really not that different to this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1428833&amp;Main=1425515#Post 1428833) which I posted, and the consensus there was that PF was OK and flop was an easy call.

[helpmeout]

So you raise 66 on a laggy table in early position, thats suicide.

If it was a rock garden then of course but his read was that the table was LAG.

[helpmeout]

Its a bad flop call against aggressive opponents.

There is a good possibility that CO would raise and BB caps it.

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
So you raise 66 on a laggy table in early position, thats suicide.

If it was a rock garden then of course but his read was that the table was LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a 5-top, and his read was that the CO and button were reasonable, but the blinds were LAGs. Easy raise. It turned out bad when CO woke up with a hand, but it's a moneymaker in the long run.

You will frequently see the flop against just the 1 or 2 LAGs, with position, and with a made middle pair. Good times.

B.

[wheelz]

[ QUOTE ]
It was a 5-top, and his read was that the CO and button were reasonable, but the blinds were LAGs. Easy raise. It turned out bad when CO woke up with a hand, but it's a moneymaker in the long run.

You will frequently see the flop against just the 1 or 2 LAGs, with position, and with a made middle pair. Good times.

B.

[/ QUOTE ]

These were my thoughts exactly. Everyone keeps pointing out that I raised with 66 out of position on a LAGgy table. I figured this raise would give me position vs the two LAGs, and I would be in a good spot. After the CO 3-bet, though, it just looks like I really screwed up this hand.

I liked the preflop play.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Now that you've added that the button was also a tight player, the pre-flop raise makes more sense. Buying the button and isolating 2 LAGs sounds like a good plan.

[chio]

the fact that this table is LAG has tremendous influence in all my decisions this hand, esp with a pocket pair

preflop:
raising 66 2 off the button is fine, especially considering the action you'll get when you flop a set

calling 2 more back to you is a must, considering that it's already been capped, you'll get tons of action with a set if you're up against an overpair, and you're getting 7-1 since everyone is going to call


flop:
i say fold here. you're getting 17-1 with maybe 2 clean outs and a backdoor straight draw.

but you're out of position and with a LAG and one or more overpairs out there, you'll likely be paying more than 1 bet to take one off, and there's no way you'll make that up with implied odds


turn:
given that you called the flop, your turn fold is good. your odds are much worse now, and you don't have a backdoor draw anymore

[helpmeout]

Low pocket pairs suck against 2-3 players. I only raise this trash in CO if the blinds are tight. I want one caller or none. If you get 2 you lose money.

Made middle pair? This is a trash pair, if you dont hit the flop you dont know where you are at.

What are you going to do if you miss the flop and you get raised? Call down and get shown a bigger pair.

[EvanJC]

preflop: i dunno, i sometimes open limp with a hand like 66, although im sure nobody else does, so your play is probably fine. however, i do think you can fold to BB's cap, despite his laggishness w/CO raising in front of you.

flop: if i were still around at this point, i probably check/fold.

ps my advice is probably bad

[BradL]

If I am continuing with the flop I am raising the flop. If I get action behind me after that I dump the hand to a bet on the turn. If I get a coldcall from CO and the turn comes without and A or a K I lead the turn if checked to and fold to raise.

-Brad

[BradL]

I really really really hate the call on the flop, it is a clear raise or fold IMO. 66 may very well still be the best hand and you will have no idea without taking control of the hand with raise. I think a raise on the flop is crucial as without a raise hero is left guessing where he stands and either calling it down or folding what may be the best hand. Much better to raise the flop and bet the turn if checked to and the board does not contain AK or Q.

Edit: I am a 10/20 player however and only played 5/10 for a brief period. Many players will bet out overcards on a flop like this and that is why I raise. If the 5/10 game is significantly more passive then this may be the wrong play, but in 10/20 I would raise this flop all day (or until i was reraised) if my opponents are typical overaggro.

-Brad

[Dubra]

no set no bet

[wheelz]

No, I think I'm with you Brad. Not raising the flop is what cost me this pot. Folding the flop is also a good plan, and obviously calling, like I did, is the worst option of all. I wanted to raise, figuring I could be against overcards, but then I figured I had to probably be against at least one overpair... so I choked and just called.

I still don't know about this hand. There's been support for folding preflop, playing the same preflop, raising preflop but folding to the cap (I don't think this is a good idea), folding the flop, raising the flop, and calling the flop (I don't think this is a good idea either).

There's certainly no standard line in hands like these.

Edit: Some of the players involved in this hand play up to 20/40. There was more than standard 5/10 aggression going on at this table, which makes me lean towards raising the flop.

[BradL]

wrong strategy for 5handed in this situation imo.

-brad

[BradL]

Folding bc of being sandwhiched between aggressors is overvalued in SH play when both aggressors are aggressive by nature. What ends up happening is you become passive and they begin to play back at eachother. You become passive in the middle and reason that since you are there they should be respecting your calls, but you often become forgotten in the middle, and end up under representing your hand as they bluff/semibluff thier overcards back at eachother. I know that was not specifically what was going on after the flop in this hand but for example pretend the player last to act on the flop had raised after you called, while his raise could mean an overpair, it could just as easily be to see a cheap card on the turn since you simply called the flop bet, now if you raise the flop his reraise behind you could still be for a cheap card on the turn but it is decidedly less likely.

-Brad

-Brad