Set over Set hand

[partygirluk]

This was hand two of a $16 Turbo. Anyone play this differently? Just bad luck? I think set over set is just one of those things, but perhaps my preflop call was loose. Only a small part of my stack, so I liked to call with a PP, but does the possibility of set over set swing this towards a fold? I weak lead at the flop as it was so draw heavy, I was pretty confident someone would reraise allowing me to push.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO (t1500)
Button (t1490)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t1850)</font>
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 (t1420)</font>
MP2 (t1240)
MP3 (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t70, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls t60.

Flop: (t280) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, MP1 calls t120, CO folds.

Turn: (t520) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t800</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1650</font>, MP1 calls t420 (All-In).

River: (t3390) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3390
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: t2960 (t2960), between Hero and MP1.</font> &gt; <font color="#FFFFFF">Pot won by MP1 (t2960).</font>
<font color="#009B00">Pot 2: t430 (t430), returned to Hero.</font>

Results below:
Hero has 3h 3d (three of a kind, threes).
MP1 has 7s 7d (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: MP1 wins t2960. Hero wins t430.

[Evolution Crisis]

Be nice if you posted what your hand was

[obex]

There are "great" 2nd best hands that you are doomed to lose your stack on. Even if you played it less aggressively on the turn, it would be wrong to fold it to the raise given all the crazies out there and legitimate raising hands that you beat (87, A8, etc). If you called, he would have put you all in on the river.
I don't think the preflop call was to loose either, given the large starting stack on Stars. Nothing better (usually) then hitting your set against a preflop raiser who hits his top pair/top kicker. It's almost a guaranteed double up.
I think you chalk this up to bad luck, like being all-in with KK preflop and running into AA.

[dtbog]

Personally I hate 22-44, and wouldn't play them for that 4x BB raise this early in the tournament. That's my personal opinion, but between the set-over-set situation and the fact that you're putting so much of your stack in before the flop (relatively), I lay this down.

Also, when you made the call, you didn't know that MP1 was along for the ride -- you could have been heads-up, out of position, with 33.

As for the rest of the hand, I don't know how you can keep from getting it all in the middle when the ace hits. Many players early in SnGs will risk everything with a pair of aces - anywhere from AT to AK. Opponent's call on the flop could make you think, but you made a small enough bet that a lot of players wouldn't fold AK, either.

Maybe fold preflop -- but either way, tough beat.

-DB

[partygirluk]

How about if some complete blank falls on the turn such as the 2 of clubs?

[lorinda]

With that texture of board, there is no way you're escaping here.
Way too many non-set options for your opponent.

Lori

[partygirluk]

So has anyone ever laid down a set for fear of an over set?

[lorinda]

In a SNG it's tough, but if the board is something like Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and the stacks are deep, then sometimes alarm bells need to go off.

I can't recall ever having done it though to be honest.

Lori

[captZEEbo1]

no. That's just one of those things I don't mind paying off. Like let's say I have KK preflop, I don't mind paying off AA even if I'm fairly sure they have it. Maybe it's just me. But yeah, in an sng, you should NOT be laying down a set for fear of an over set, that's how I play anyways /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[curtains]

If you really were fairly sure someone had KK, you should fold it in some situations. Unfortunately it's very difficult to be so sure of that online.

[citanul]

I don't know if Hero editted his post, or what, but it says in multiple places what his hand was in this hand.

citanul

[citanul]

22-44 are effectively the same as 55-88 or so in the early going of sngs, and possibly even up to 99 or TT.

The amount of his stack that he put in is not nearly "large" as you called it. The amount of his stack that he put in was (I don't have the post open now) around 5% of his stack, maybe a bit more, but certainly less than 10%.

Set over set just doesn't happen very often. If you don't play small pairs because you fear set over set, you're losing a ton of EV. Sets (particularly small ones, because that leaves more cards open for your opponents to hit top pairs, that they will think are good) are great stack taking/high implied odds hands, because they are both well disguised, and players in sngs have a tendency to be willing to go broke, even early on, with any top pair, or even less.

When the ace hits, his 3 of a kind still beats any one pair or two pair aces hands. That's why he can keep going at it with his bottom set. Again, say you bet out on when an ace hits, and some shmo raises you with his newfound top pair. That's a great spot! You're likely going to get all his chips right away, and they'll often be drawing dead.

Small pairs are good stuff, particularly in position. Lee Jones (I think) had an internet article about playing them in Satellite play. There are also many posts in the past about how much of your stack you should be willing to put in preflop in early levels on purely the idea of "hit a set or fold." Needless to say, 5% is well within that range.

citanul

[citanul]

I very rarely fold preflop here. Seeing as how we saw a flop:

On the flop, bet more! There's straights and flush draws out there. I think I'd bet somewhere in the 200-300 range.

On the turn, well, we're here, and the turn is incredibly non-scary. We put in all our money, and when called, we're winning a huge amount of the time.

Yeah, every once in a while, you get nailed by a set over set, but that's real monsters under the bed stuff.

You're going to get called by a bunch of stuff here:

-&gt; Any ace
-&gt; Two hearts
-&gt; Any overpair
-&gt; Some random hand that had top pair on the flop
-&gt; Complete bluffs? (eh, I guess yo'ure going to get pure bluff raised on the turn there sometimes, but they might throw it away and save their last 400)

If I were involved in this hand, the likely action probably would have been:

I bet 200 on the flop, guy with bigger set raises, I push, he calls, I lose. I woulda saved about 12 seconds of my life, relative to your actions...

Hard luck, good thing there's always next time.

citanul