Party 2/4 prepares for a new year - ATo

[StellarWind]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

I was very happy with this table. It's a good table but not a special one. I took this trouble to document the current face of Party $2/$4. Those of you who don't play 2/4 any more (or yet) might want to read it carefully.

UTG is TAG. UTG+1 is very loose/typical. UTG+2 is somewhat too loose and moderately aggressive. He clearly has some reasonable ideas. He apologized to Cutoff for a runner-runner flush by citing the enormous pot size as a reason to call the flop with backdoors. Well motivated and not ridiculous but he was overboard. MP1 is an extremely aggressive TAG. MP2 is tight/typical but also weak and flaky. Cutoff was a jerk about the aforementioned flush suckout. He's almost tight/typical but probably incompetent. Button is TAG. SB is a rock. BB is somewhere between tight/passive and normal/typical.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls.

River: (7 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: 7 BB, between Hero and UTG+2.</font>

[BottlesOf]

Hot. Hope you took it all.

[Shillx]

I'm thinking that the villian has a weaker suited ace enough here to make betting profitable. I don't fear trips at all, and there isn't a draw to bet on the flop.

Brad

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
'm thinking that the villian has a weaker suited ace enough here to make betting profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

This is impossible, (unless he's going to fold it, which is very unlikely.) Do you see why? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Shillx]

Haha yeah I'm just kidding. Nice hand.

[Azhrarn]

Huh. Weird mix of players for 2/4. But then, I don't have much experience with that game. But it doesn't seem like a good table...

Anyway, I like a river bet. Based on your description, I don't think he has AK, AQ, or a 9. So it's the possibility of AJ vs. the possibility of him paying you off with a pocket pair or a two. My gut says its a narrow value bet.

Oh, I'm excluding two other possibilities: that he may bluff checkraise you with a tying or losing hand (doesn't seem the sort), and that betting the river will increase the rake in the very likely chance that you split the pot. I'm not sure how to account for that, or what the rake structure is, so I'm ignoring it.

[Nick C]

I've been at a number of tables lately where there are one or two very loose players who are in most hands, and for the most part the rest of the table sort of takes turns raising preflop and playing against the one or two nearly-any-two-cards players.

And then when there aren't any obviously very loose players present, I'll often see preflop folded around to the blinds about once an orbit. Also, the blinds will get stolen with a preflop raise on a semi-regular basis.

I do think it's getting harder to find loose tables on Party 2/4.

In the posted hand, I see that six players saw the flop. But only two made it to the turn. And, also, I note that for seven of the other players at the table, StellarWind used the word "tight" or "rock" in the description. So I doubt there were all that many six-handed flops.

Anyway, I hope I'm interpreting this post correctly and we're supposed to discuss the table more than the hand. (In the hand itself, the decision I'd struggle with is whether or not to bet the river. But I'm confident StellarWind made the right choice.)

[Richard Berg]

Nice hand. I suppose the tables are tightening up at the moment? I don't know how that compares to holiday weeks from previous years, but I assume the weakest / most casual players are the most likely to be vacationing (whether in a cozy family setting or merely donating to B&amp;M players instead).

I'm confident that with your detailed reads, the lack of obvious bad-play markers (VPIP&gt;50) won't stop you from nonetheless catching them making costly mistakes. Perhaps that's your point? Do you multitable?

[billyjex]

I don't know, playing tonight, I was finding some good tables. I don't have a huge datamining database, but I'd find one with one or two loose passives, a LAG, and some TAGs. It's not bad if you know the TAGs.

I found a new best friend tonight as well (VPIP 91, PFR 30 over 110 hands.)

It's pretty much about table selection.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think it's getting harder to find loose tables on Party 2/4.


[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. Play UB for a week. Party will seem real nice.

Not sure why I haven't switched yet. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I took this trouble to document the current face of Party $2/$4. Those of you who don't play 2/4 any more (or yet) might want to read it carefully.

UTG is TAG. UTG+1 is very loose/typical. UTG+2 is somewhat too loose and moderately aggressive. He clearly has some reasonable ideas. He apologized to Cutoff for a runner-runner flush by citing the enormous pot size as a reason to call the flop with backdoors. Well motivated and not ridiculous but he was overboard. MP1 is an extremely aggressive TAG. MP2 is tight/typical but also weak and flaky. Cutoff was a jerk about the aforementioned flush suckout. He's almost tight/typical but probably incompetent. Button is TAG. SB is a rock. BB is somewhere between tight/passive and normal/typical.


[/ QUOTE ]

sniff...

This is just a thing of beauty.

Fantastic table description.

The CO reminds me of most of the UB players. I love that description.

Have a good one!

b

[gaming_mouse]

I dig.

[ThePenguin]

Very nice detailed table description. I think that tables like this are the currently the mode at PP 2/4 (I put in many hands at this limit) especially for the past few weeks. Every once in awhile it's been a joy to find three tables that get four callers to a flop; it seems to be tightening up lately. As for your hand, I would have played it the same way

[cpk]

Though SSHE may recommend against this, I think that in LP you should at least consider raising preflop with AT. You are winning more than your share, and the tight players behind you will fold AJ or even AQ. A reraise will signal you to be careful, whereas limping won't give you any information about Button or SB's holding at all.

If an 8 or something had come instead of a J you should've bet the river. No big deal now, because the most likely thing you can beat is a crap Ace.

[cpk]

Remember that he splits with any Ace he doesn't lose to, so that kind of nukes the value bet. Checking the river is only a mistake if a card lower than a T hits.

[DMBFan23]

I'm curious as to why this was such a good table...you do have most of the loose players on your right and most of the tight players on your left, which is nice, but the TAG directly on your right? didnt MP1 raise you out of a lot of pots you would have otherwise been in with a bunch of too-loose players? or did this not happpen enough to cancel the effect of being on the left of a bunch of loose players...I'm just getting into this whole table selection thing, so inquiring minds want to know.

nice hand btw.

[odellthurman]

I would have folded preflop. Please tell me why that is wrong.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded preflop. Please tell me why that is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the player descriptions of the players who already limped:

UTG+1: Very loose. He could have almost random cards, you are very likely ahead

UTG+2: Somewhat too loose and moderately aggressive. If he had AQ, AJ, he would have raised preflop. You're ahead of him.

MP1: Very aggressive. He limps, so he's likely got a much worse hand than you (as he would have raised anything close to what you hold).

Your AT is very very often the best hand here (by far)

[MRBAA]

I raise it preflop. The rest I play the same. I have just recently played a little 2-4 at Party after almost a year of not playing online, and the games seem ridiculously soft, despite the presence of relatively few maniacs. Most players seem to be either mechanical or have no understanding (of course there are plenty of good ones mixed in there). For example, I limped on the button multiway with 9Ts, flopped a flush draw on a low ragged board and bet when the flop was checked around. Everyone folded except one ep player. Turn was a Q offsuit and ep check/called. Now I'm thinking there's a good chance he's on a draw too. Sure enough, the river comes another rag, no flush or likely str8. He checks, I bet and my T high takes it down unseen. There are so many opportunities to get the best of it against "competent" players who don't think on mulitple levels. It's interesting, because even some of the most insane LAGs in live play often seem to make more of an attempt to put opponents on hands.

[odellthurman]

Thanks for the reply about folding it preflop. I believe that I am playing too tight preflop, and this is a good example for me to think about. How far down the A/x offsuit ladder do you limp with this? And, if you believe you are ahead with A/10o, why not raise with it preflop?

[MRBAA]

From MP, ATo is as low as I'll go. But I won't limp it, I'll go ahead and raise. Chances are I'm ahead of the limpers (or in a race with small-mid pairs) and I'm raising for value, as I'll win more than my share when the flop comes with an A. I also don't mind narrowing the field with this hand and maybe even buying the button.

[odellthurman]

I have been playing very similarly, with A/Jo as my cutoff hand, not A/10o. If I think I have the best hand when I come in, I raise virtually every time.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply about folding it preflop. I believe that I am playing too tight preflop, and this is a good example for me to think about. How far down the A/x offsuit ladder do you limp with this? And, if you believe you are ahead with A/10o, why not raise with it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Each step down the ace-kicker ladder is huge. AJo is an always play for me. ATo I play from about MP2/MP3 onward. Sometimes I play A9o on the button. A8o is only for stealing and the blinds.

Often I raise ATo when I play it but it doesn't play so well in a large field. With fewer opponents, worse opponents, or better position I probably would have raised.

The hand illustrates an advantage of limping. I flopped top pair and caught an incoming flop bet from a worse ace. That allowed me to effectively protect my hand with a raise. One drawback of preflop raises with big aces is your opponents pretty much know what to do when you flop an ace. They expect that either you have a big pocket pair or you just made a pair of aces. They raise with two pair, call down with an ace or a draw, and fold with less. At least I think they fold a lot more often than they would without a raise to warn them.

It's still important to raise for value preflop with an ace when you clearly have the best of it. But I often don't bother when my preflop edge seems small and I'm not well-positioned to get a headsup or shorthanded pot. This is largely a personal preference issue and raising this hand isn't wrong. In part I feel that I am good at outplaying my opponents in unraised pots. The scope for skillful postflop play is reduced by a raise.

[MRBAA]

All good points, but largely illusory against loose, not terribly good opponents, I think. When three limp to you with who knows what, you're getting three more SB from them plus possibly buying the button preflop with a hand that very likely dominates what they have. Go ahead and raise -- you can still outplay them postflop

[Azhrarn]

Yes, I know, that why I was talking about the odds of the villain paying off with a two or pocket pair. It doesn't nuke the value bet, it just takes it from an easy one to a marginal one.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
betting the river will increase the rake in the very likely chance that you split the pot. I'm not sure how to account for that, or what the rake structure is, so I'm ignoring it.

[/ QUOTE ]
A river bet and call will move the pot past the $30 threshold and increase the rake by $0.50. So betting a chop will lose a quarter = 1/16 BB for each of you.

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
A river bet and call will move the pot past the $30 threshold and increase the rake by $0.50. So betting a chop will lose a quarter = 1/16 BB for each of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play enough on Party that I should really try and memorize these things. Okay, that changes things. The value bet was probably marginal enough to be neutralized by this. Nevermind, I hereby withdraw my case.

[StellarWind]

He had A /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif and MHIT.

[ThePenguin]

[ QUOTE ]
The scope for skillful postflop play is reduced by a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great point to consider whenver you hold A10o in EP/MP. When I play it, I often find myself dominated by AJ or AQ and I am never given an opportunity to fold. The info you would receive from one of their raises is often forfeited when you raise this pre-flop, and A10 is weak enough that you typically want to be cautious with it. Many of these 2/4 players call down even when they have A10 outkicked in a raised pot, especially if you have a TAG table image, but will raise and alert you to their strength if you limp and bet the flop. Limping is better than raising in this situation because it gives you a better opportunity to assess your opponents holdings post-flop