This is how I get owned.

[Bukem_]

10/20 6 max.

I'm sb with Ad Qh.

Villian has vpip 40+ and pfr 23. Af not as high, 1.4

Folded to villain who raises from CO. I 3-bet. Heads up.

He's raised here a ton here, and I've had crap everytime, so I've been folding. I 3-bet more because I want him to feel like he has to hit to win, not me.

Flop 7c 10d 8c.

I bet, he calls.

Turn 8h.

I bet, he raises. I call.

River Ks. I check/fold after I admit that I just got bitch slapped.

[daryn]

why are you trying to justify 3 betting from the sb with AQ by hitting us with all these funky numbers? it's pretty standard.

[Bukem_]

Cause I feel like I'm throwing away bets in this hand. It just didn't feel right.

[daryn]

well you kinda did. i was just saying preflop was standard.

[Grisgra]

If I call the turn raise I look him up on the river, for information about how he might play certain hands if nothing else. And let him know (or let him think) I'll call him down HU with A-high.

No possibility of A9 or QJ or whatnot? You've got 8:1 odds. That plus the info plus the rep for not-being-bluffed-out-of-a-pot I think makes the call worthwhile.

[Gazza]

I pay him off at the end. There are too many semi-bluff hands that you can beat for you to fold getting 9.5-1.
I suppose the only way to get away from the hand is to check fold the turn. Sounds horribly weak though certainly plausible against certain opponents.
In my view once you bet and he raises there is too much in the pot to get away from it against a Laggy 10-20 player (his AF factor is reasonably high for someone who plays so many hands).
I wouldn't worry about it. That's just the way it goes when you miss.

Gazza

[Bukem_]

I think my biggest problem is my went to showdown is too low.

Its just under 30%, and I think hands like these are a big reason why.

[Grisgra]

I'm glad you pay him off too, Gazza -- I saw your stats for 10/20 and while I haven't taken my shot at it yet, my 5/10 stats are pretty similar. (Though you're ahead of me in BB/100!)

I'm hoping to follow in your footsteps someday /images/graemlins/smile.gif. It seems to me that with A-high HU in an aggressive environment, when there's lots of $$ put in pf, you've got to be looking folks up a decent chunk of the time. (Whether that chunk is 30% or 50% or 70% I dunno.)

A board like this I think is a good place to do a lookup. But maybe I'm just a calling station at heart.

[Grisgra]

I don't remember what my go-to-showdown% is, but I do know that my %won at showdown is pretty damn low, very close to 50%. Not proud of that -- I probably call a little too often. But I think there's an advantage you get if your opponents think they can't push you off of A-high when HU. I know I get frustrated against loose passive opponents that I KNOW won't let go of their AK to save their lives -- I know I can't really make moves on them that I might make on a tight-aggressive.

[Gazza]

[ QUOTE ]
A board like this I think is a good place to do a lookup. But maybe I'm just a calling station at heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you are going to be a calling station then the river is the right place to be one!
I would estimate we win this hand about 1 in 5 times making this a most profitable call.
Sometimes people play badly going too far with their hand (I'm not saying that is the case here) and then compound their error by folding on the river - which is probably the worst mistake of all.

For example, I just played the following hand a few minutes ago

I raise first in from the CO with A9o.

Unfortunately the button and the SB call and the BB 3 bets!

Not what I was hoping for. Anyway we all call the raise and the flop comes

3c, 6d, Ah

SB checks, BB (who is very loose and quite aggressive but not a fish) bets, I raise, Button and SB fold, BB 3 bets and I call

Turn 2c

BB bets
Now I really feel like folding. I mean I've got the information I desired from my raise on the flop and it is obvious I am beat and I am not getting the odds to draw to my kicker. But then I remembered this is Party 10-20 and the pot is quite big so I called

River 4c

BB bets, I want to fold again but make the crying call

He turns over JJ and I win a nice pot.

Gazza

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
I think my biggest problem is my went to showdown is too low.

Its just under 30%, and I think hands like these are a big reason why.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is too low IMO. Mine is 33%, im not sure if that is too high or too low but it seems to have worked for me. What is your won money at showdown % ?

-Brad

[bds]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB bets, I want to fold again but make the crying call

He turns over JJ and I win a nice pot.

Gazza

[/ QUOTE ]

I have made those same crying calls in many hands in $5/10 and have won similar to this. What I'm not sure of is whether it is a +EV play or not. In other words, do the times I put the extra bets in cost me more than the pots I win when I am ahead?

[Bukem_]

I don't have enough hands at 10/20 to give a meaningful won at sd. At 5/10 my went to sd was close to the same, and my won at sd was 56%.

[Bukem_]

Even it is slightly -Ev to make this call, It helps with table image to make them know they can't push you off a hand, even if it's only ace high.

Looking back, I think I should have either check/folded on the turn this hand, or called it down.

By far, I make the most money when people are folding to me without a showdown, when they play like they are scared of me, since I supposedly always have a hand.

[bds]

[ QUOTE ]

By far, I make the most money when people are folding to me without a showdown, when they play like they are scared of me, since I supposedly always have a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point - very true.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't remember what my go-to-showdown% is, but I do know that my %won at showdown is pretty damn low, very close to 50%. Not proud of that -- I probably call a little too often

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you could kill the 10/20 6 max game and have a win money at showdown % of less than 50

stripsqueez - chickenhawk