CCCPoker pot limit

Has anyone from this forum tried the real money game? I've seen a few forum posters in the play money but not the real money. I've observed the real money game for a quite a while and from all appearances it looks incredibly soft. The 1-2 looks a little tougher than the .50 but not by a lot.


I've also watched closely for signs of collusion and didn't really see anything suspicious. Their biggest problem appears to be getting more users. But the pot limit game seems pretty good and honest from what I've observed.


For those of you who have played it, is it worth buying in?


natedogg

I play there and have noticed nothing odd. It seems to have a core of regulars. Sometimes the game really swings.


MS Sunshine

I've played quite a lot in the 1-2 game, and have very much enjoyed it. I have not witnessed any obvious collusion, though where there are cards and money, there will always be cheating. Frankly, in a pot limit game collusion between clever players is a real worry. Poor players would be less able to benefit while maintaining a disguise.


Another major concern is the ability of players to go all-in at the point where they either lose their connection or choose not to respond. The former situation has occurred to me quite regularly. I didn't realise the latter was a problem until I thought too long facing a large bet and was timed out. I did not understand that this left me all-in to that point. I assumed I had lost the pot by default. My error was pointed out in no uncertain terms after all concerned called the floorman.


It was a very embarrassing episode as it turned out, although I actually lost the pot against 4xQ. I had already decided to fold my underfull, but that was no consolation to the winner, who felt rather aggrieved.


I believe that more time should be allowed in large pots, but conversely if a player cannot regain a lost connection in that time, he should fold by default. Tough, but without such a rule, the system as it stands will be abused. I despise cheats and would rather lose a pot than have my good name bought into question, which it was last night.

Dunno about the real$ game, but the play$ one is fun.


I dont know why Paradise doesnt at least add a play$ pot limit, add a little spice.

I have played quite a lot in the 1-2 and 0.50-1 games last weeks and was at first very positive (also in posts at this forum). Now I have more mixed feelings, as suspecious all-ins are really getting to be a problem.


A couple of examples:


1) Raise from the button, I call from SB with AJ, two other callers. Flop is J42. Check to the raiser, which bets pot, about 35. I reraise all-in - about 65 more. Everybody else folds, original raiser doesnt make a move and is declared all-in. Turns out he has 99, which of course is a problem hand here and a prime candidate for all-in abuse. It probably isnt any good after the betting, but there are two hearts on the flop so I could be semibluffing on a draw. I won the pot, but still complained to floor. Answer: "We checked and he really did lose his connection..."


2) I have KJ, flop is QTx three diamonds, I have K of diamonds. I try a bet on the flop, gets two callers. A blank hits on the turn, I try again (yeah yeah, I am crazy, I know lol). My bet is now about 200 $. Next guy has about 200 left, but suddenly freezes. He is declared all-in. Third guy raises all-in, which means another 100. I hate it, but calls anyway. Turns out he had 98 of diamonds, so I had outs against him. The all-in guy has the ace of diamonds however... A nice card, but you know why pay 200 when you can get it for free? So I complains again to floor (and the winner of the pot joins in naturally). Answer from floor: "The all-in guy really did lose his connection.."


Maybe both guys did lose their connection, I dont know. It sure looked suspecious to me. Problem is, all they have to do is to rip out the plug back home, and nobody can prove they timed out on purpose. Playing pot limit under these conditions are near to impossible, in my opinion. Only solution is to get rid of the all-in protection. Tough, but it has to be done.


The Balrog

I agree, let everyone swing together. You have a bad connection then don't play. Let's put a stop to this.


I believe most time outs without losing connection are players doing other stuff, but some take advanage a lot.


It should at least be tried in a high game on one of the major poker sites. See how everyone feels with working without a net.


MS Sunshine

What about a rule that says if you are all-in due to losing a connection you can only win if you were best at that point? It wouldn't be perfect because a big bluff could be all-in'ed against, but then again, the big bluff won't lose his money either. However, if an all-in player tries to get a free draw, he's wasting his time.


natedogg

That's not a bad rule.


MS Sunshine

I love that idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


One more Idea is to have a button that would let you think for another 10 20 30 sec or so.

Pretty good ideas fellas. I have also had problems with people going all in at ccc. To operate well this game has to be watched very closely. Perhaps people who time out in a pot over 100 bucks should be tracked or even lose their allins for the day. The game is alot of fun and a good change of pace for all you internet grinders. The game is pretty small and I wonder how big you can play online without these problems outweighing the fun and profitability of playing pot limit online. One more thing is the bar you have to press to make the amount of your bet creates some problems. I think it is a bit difficult to use.

I understand the problems being discussed here...... but I think getting rid of all-ins "all together" is a terrible idea. Perhaps the system could use some re-vamping..........


I actually have had very little problem with all-in abuse...... and think that they're neccessary when playing online to protect honest players- from technological issues- beyond their control.


And more importantly-- if sites do what they're supposed to and monitor these issues-- i dont think this discussion would be neccessary.


One more thing............


Balrog: If all CCC is doing-- is telling you that the player was- in fact- disconnected......... they're not doing enough as a site to protect their players.


Its really easy for me to physically disconnect my cable modem-- when faced with a tough call. To everyone it will look as though i was disconnected-- which- of course-- i was......... Just not in the way- you or i- understand "disconnected" to mean- related to this situation.


Point being-- your situations do seem blatant......... And the players MAY HAVE- in fact- BEEN DISCONNECTED. But that-- in itself-- doesnt mean much.

Ok, pot is $200 with a board of As 9h 7h 6c. The bet to me is $60. I put the bettor on a big ace while I hold A8h. I think that a bet of $150 will win the pot right there and if not, I still have 17 outs to the best hand. Unfortunately I get disconnected and cannot make the bet. Now the river comes 5d. Under Natedoggs system, I can not win the pot because I did not have the best hand at the time of disconnect. At best, I lose the $200 pot. At worst I lose the pot, the $150 bet and also all implied odds that would come from a bet and call at the turn. I don't mean to be critical at all. I appreciate that you want to fix a recurring problem. I too have encountered it. One day when I was having serious connection problems, I was accused of it. I don't have an answer but I think the above situation might illustrate why Natedoggs solution might miss the mark as well.


Larry

I also play frequently at CCC (which is a great, and, in my opinion, safe site), and while I have never timed out myself (except for twice when CCC servers crashed) or had a pot where it was obvious someone was going all in with a problem hand, I have definitely seen all-in abuse. A player who did so in one instance claimed that he didn't have enough time when faced with large turn bet; he ended up winning the pot, as two pair were up against a straight and the all-in player caught a full house on the river. While it was possible he just didn't realize his time was up and was put all in, most players at the table believed he was cheating, as did I.


Another instance featured a player with position who made a great bluff pot bet against two players... one player to the left of the button folded, but the next player to the right of the bettor deliberated with a weak hand (middle pair I believe). The player with middle pair did not act and went all in, and took down a decent pot when the bettor's overcards did not hit. The player with middle pair had not had any connection problems while I had been playing, and several of the players accused him of cheating, most likely rightly so.


One of the previous posters probably suggested the best solution, which is to somehow add an "extra time" button. Just like at a casino where a player can request time, CCC should allow it's players to request an additional 30 seconds or full minute when faced with a large pot bet. It's the least they could do for their players. I know it's tough for me to decide in thirty seconds whether or not I want to go all in for more than $100. If this option is added, then it would be more feasible to get rid of all-ins, but there is still the problem of people who do in fact lose their connections. The bottom line in these cases, however, is to make sure you have a good connection if you're going to play high stakes poker over the internet anyway. I'd like to see someone like Ernest from CCC respond to this, and any other CCC players' ideas would be good to hear as well. Take it easy,

DukeDuhon

AllIn abuse is in fact a problem that cannot be coped with solely on a technical basis only. What the server can see is that a player has a physical disconnection or just times out, for what reason ever (the boss or spouse enters the room, etc...). What we are currently adding are two technical features in the network layer: (1) an auto-reconnect where the client automatically initiates a reconnection (and resit) in case of a "real" disconnection, and (2) a server based connection monitor so the server is always able to tell the quality of each single client connection.


While (1) is missed dearly, (2) is a brand new concept. We have statistics that "bad" network connections tend to get instable (slow/fast/slow) before the connection is lost, and we plan to use these stats to aid floormen in their decision if AllIn abuse has taken place or not.


The server will also monitor the subnets, which means that if a whole subnet gets lost it is more likely that the disconnection is "real" (e.g. sometimes it happens that the whole US is unreachable for a second or two, so all US based players fall off immediately).


Granted, all these techniques cannot ensure complete protection from AllIn abuse. This is why at CCCPoker a live floorman is always available, 24x7, to rule any disputes.


A short note on the AllIn counters: every player has one AllIn per day, this counter is reset every day at midnight (server time, which is MET). Floorman can exclude players that are "guilty" of AllIn abuse from this automatic reset, for a couple of days to forever.


You want more time? This is ok with the developers, and we will implement a "let me think some time" button in the client. Management has to decide when this button will be effective, as it can severly slow down games if used too often. I believe they will allow an extra 10 or 20 seconds after the flop, or after the river, once per game and player, and only if the pot exceeds a certain threshold. We really would like your input on this matter, since the issue is twofold (you have more time, but games are slower).


Thanks for your time and interest /images/smile.gif


Ernest E Vogelsinger

CCCPoker Technical Support

http://www.cccpoker.com/