a flop check after capping and flopping and all that.

[bisonbison]

Party 3/6, couple nights ago. good table.

UTG+2 is decent.
MP1 is loose.
SB is laggy.

CO is a known lagball. I've already got 150 hands with him when he sits down a couple of orbits before this hand. He plays half his hands, raises 1/5th of them. His postflop aggression number is 1.5.


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (18 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks...

FPS? FOS? SOP?

[Lost Wages]

FPS? FOS? SOP?

WTF?

LW

[bisonbison]

Fancy Play Syndrome?
Full of Shoelaces?
Standard Operating Procedure?

bisonbisonbisonbison.

[littlejohn]

SOP in my opinion. If he is laggy like you say - there's no way he lets it get checked through 4 players. LAG's don't allow that to happen, regardless of the PF action (even if his postflop aggression number is low). So you get the most bets in the pot here by CR'ing.

But I may not know what I'm talking about.

[dfscott]

I think I bet the flop and hope CO raises to fold out the weak draws. There's not a lot of them since you don't care about lone /images/graemlins/heart.gif or aces, and anyone with two /images/graemlins/heart.gif isn't going anywhere. I guess the only thing you could hope to fold is AT, a J that might pair later, or an unlikely Q9, but I think I'd do this anyway.

[Danenania]

This is fine I think though it wouldn't occur to me. I would just bet, let him raise, then 3-bet hopefully catching the other two players in between who didn't believe the lag's raise meant anything.

P.S. Are you trying to quit capital letters? If so good luck. I've tried and it's tough. Read e.e. cummings for inspiration.

[bisonbison]

I just like to leave bisonbison uncapitalized because it looks more uniform. I don't fail to capitalize en masse.

[Anders_G]

[ QUOTE ]
I would just bet, let him raise, then 3-bet hopefully catching the other two players in between who didn't believe the lag's raise meant anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's the way to do it too. If you bet and the LAG raise you drive weak draws out and you charge the flushdraw maximum to se turn.
I think the check-raise is too risky with a flop like that, if the LAG decides that his hand isn't good (yes, that happens people) a lot of 2nd best hands are given a good chanse to draw you out, to me it's not worth the risk. That, combined with the fact that you can charge him (and any caller) for 3 bets if he raise you makes betting the better move.

[Danenania]

I'm referring more to your subject line. Work with me here!

[Evan]

Fancy play. Getting this checked through blows big donkey nuts.

Seriously, 1.5 AF is not high. I just looked at mine and its 2.93 (I have no idea if that's good, bad or awful...but I know its higher).

I see no reason not to bet here.

[J.R.]

Seriously, 1.5 AF is not high. I just looked at mine and its 2.93 (I have no idea if that's good, bad or awful...but I know its higher).

This isn't an apple to apples comparison cause this guy plays half his hands. He may be more aggressive than you postflop (i.e. bet/raise more), but because he is in so many pots he also calls more, meaning he could be more aggresssive and have a lower AF than you. AF is a ratio between bet/raise and calling, not a singular measure of bet-raise.

Generally speaking, a 1.5 AF for someone playing half there hands means either they are pretty aggressive postflop (because you kno they call alot, so they must bet-raise more for the number to be over 1) or are weak tight (i.e. they fold a lot on the flop, which minimizes there calling number). WTSD (even better folds flop and folds turn stats) and VPIP need to be known to provide the context to gain something meaningful from AF stats.

[J.R.]

Give StellarWind some love for leaving SS (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=headsup&amp;Number=1116182&amp;For um=f8&amp;Words=%2Baggression%20%2Bfactor&amp;Searchpage=0 &amp;Limit=300&amp;Main=1107521&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp; Name=&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval= &amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post1116182)

This gets into the problems with the Aggression Factor stat.

[chesspain]

bison,

You have a very good, but not invincible hand, in a 9BB pot. I would bet, and give the LAG a chance to raise, and/or give the others a chance to chase with their weak draws or fold. I can't see how betting here could be wrong, whereas I could see plenty wrong if it gets checked through.

[billuhbong]

cheesepain i agree, btw who is that picture of??

[bisonbison]

So you're saying it's one of those "twelve of one, half a dozen of the other" type things?

Cause I think I agree. This worked in that I got to checkraise, but I think I'll save it for known postflop maniacs. Besides, I might have been able to 3-bet the flop.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
cheesepain i agree, btw who is that picture of??

[/ QUOTE ]

The man in the picture would certainly have something to say about the way you mangled my name.

[jacki]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. Are you trying to quit capital letters? If so good luck. I've tried and it's tough. Read e.e. cummings for inspiration.

[/ QUOTE ]

listening to k.d. lang doesn't work as well for some reason.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
CO is a known lagball. I've already got 150 hands with him when he sits down a couple of orbits before this hand. He plays half his hands, raises 1/5th of them. His postflop aggression number is 1.5.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why not make the play you are expected to and hope he raise ?

[bernie]

Lagball? heh. I like that.

Bet out on the flop so he can raise so you can 3 bet.

You might be able to c/r the turn. However, with him being the only 1 left behind to bet it, be careful in trying this.

b

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
cheesepain i agree, btw who is that picture of??

[/ QUOTE ]

The man in the picture would certainly have something to say about the way you mangled my name.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cheesepain..lol..
why not just call him cheeseball?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hi bisonbison,

i know you like your hand a lot and you know lagball co will bet so you can c/r, but consider 2 things about betting this flop:

a) in a 18 small bet pot, you want anybody with a piece of this board to incorrectly fold because even as few as 3 outs has outs against you and even a 2 out set draw has implied odds to call behind you.

b) by betting yourself you ensure yourself getting in the money and even getting a chance to 3-bet.

so yea, bet this sucker out. hope CO raises to protect your hand, and 3-bet his ass heads up or to trap the field, whichever way is better than checkraising.

i think you saw the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif and saw your hand stronger than it actually is. if you held the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif instead, i don't think you would even think about checkraising.

oh yea, wanna play sometime soon homie?

[bisonbison]

I just got home from dinner and was thinking "when am I gonna play live again?"

Yes. Just tell me when. Almost everyone's out of town this year for me, so I'm very flexible.