Player Categories and Stats For 6-max

[gaming_mouse]

I'm hoping bison (or someone else who's qualified) can help provide a "stats <--> category" dictionary for 6 max games which is similar to the one bison provides for full ring games in the excellent post Some Notes on Notes (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=923884&fpart= 1&PHPSESSID=).

That is, things like:

TA-A = VPIP between 20-30, Aggression >2.5, etc.
LP-P = .....
etc.

Don't know if those numbers are right -- just giving an example of what I'm looking for.

TIA,
gm

[pfkaok]

I'm trying to find a good system for this, but it seems like you'd need a lot more icons than PT has, b/c there seem to be a lot more variety of players in the 6max games... however, I know that Naphand is trying to datamine in order to find out which aggression levels are optimal for a given VPIP, and that would help a lot as far as grouping people into profitable or unprofitable, so that you could quickly tell if the game is bad and move. I don't know how many hands he has, or how many it'll take to get a good system for it, but I think that once this gets made it would probably be the best type of auto-rate system for 6max. Anyways, I've yet to see an autorate system for 6max that looks as informitive as bisons for full games.

Getting to know you (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1364042&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=9&o=14&fpart=1)

This thread is very helpful, and gives good stuff about player types, and can definately help you to apply your PT stats if you have something like Playerview... but as far as the autorate thing, let me know if you come up with one, or find one that is able to group player types appropriately.

[helpmeout]

Autorate with things like VPIP are a waste of time.

Personally I just do it with TOT-A as that is the major factor at 6max.

0-0.5
0.5-1
1-1.5
1.5-2
2-3
3+

When a 0.5 guy raises me on the turn I usually fold pretty quick unless I have the goods.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Autorate with things like VPIP are a waste of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

VPIP is absolutely an important factor at any level. I don't know how you could say otherwise. Of course, auto-rating using only VPIP would be just as ridiculous as ignoring it altogether.

gm

[helpmeout]

Its a waste of time because you should already have their VPIP.

[wahooriver]

You might want to try this post and reply.

PT Auto-Rate Criterai for 6-max (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1060670&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1)

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Its a waste of time because you should already have their VPIP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I use PlayerView anyway, so I do. But I don't know... all of bison's auto-rate suggestion incorporate VPIP. I don't see what's wrong with that. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

[TJD]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is very helpful, and gives good stuff about player types, and can definately help you to apply your PT stats if you have something like Playerview..

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, as is often the case on this forum, the discussion died due to lack of response. I wanted to take this further but folks seem unprepared to discuss anything other than "TELL me what I should do on this hand"; "Please review my PT stats"; "I am having a big downswing" etc.

The BIG problem with PT stats is that I do not believe they tell us what we want to know. Autorate would be great if the stats available were of more use.

AF - Tot (or even by street) is a very crude guide and while I do autorate using this, it is very much just a quick glance check. Something like; "high VP$IP at this table - OK - but AF's are all high so I shall look for a softer one"

I was hoping that the thread would allow us to put a case to PT for adding better measures for analysing opponents but no-one seems interested /images/graemlins/frown.gif (again).

I have just started to do my own measures instead. They may not be best but they are certainly better than the PT statistics. They are much more predictive of players hands than a crude AF number.

These "new" numbers have improved my reads enormously but doing it is time consuming at present until I have the program fully integrated with PTs database.

It seems a pity that I, as well as other players no doubt, will be having to write our own Access routines to query the database in order to extract the information we would like when a united voice may get PT to include the ones we would like as standard.

Still, lets look forward to the next "bad beat" post instead /images/graemlins/smile.gif

T

[bds]

I am too new to be able to contribute ideas here, since I'm still working on understanding all the stats we have and remembering to pay attention to the right one at the right time. I was wondering, though, if you have emailed Pat at Poker Tracker and asked him about incorporating the measures you think are important. In my communications with him, he has always been very responsive and seems committed to improving the program. Have you been in touch with him?

[helpmeout]

PT provides heaps of stats, I dont know what more you want.

Maybe you want a popup to come up during each hand to say this guy is bluffing in this situation 45%.

Or this guy has 2 pair or better 30% of the time.

You have to figure it out yourself, that is how you have an advantage over other players.

Make an educated guess based on the stats you have as well as how he has played his last few hands, also your table image and what you have.

More tools/stats information means harder games and lower winrates.

Eventually it'll mean more bots cos thats what will happen.

[TJD]

[ QUOTE ]
More tools/stats information means harder games and lower winrates.

Eventually it'll mean more bots cos thats what will happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bots question is one I have insufficient knowledge to be certain of. However, chess has been played to an excellent standard by computers but bridge has not. I do not believe that poker will be played well by computers either.

The first point I fundamentally disagree with. It is what you DO with information that is important. If you prefer to take a shot in the dark based on a couple of hands v a particular opponent then well and good. It is your choice.

Yes PT DOES have heaps of stats but they do not answer, in a direct way, the questions we would like to have answered at the table when sitting down against a player who WE have only just met but could have been "datamined" for 1000's of hands.

Your reply is trite and fearul of technology. All I want is for PT to provide "meaningful" post flop stats and that was the purpose of my original thread. Did you read it? Did you contribute, explaining how PT answers the "questions"?

Merry Xmas /images/graemlins/smile.gif

T

[helpmeout]

Do you think a turn aggression of 3 is not meaningful?
Do you think a checkraise % of 4 is not meaningful?
Do you think a folded to river bet of 20 is not meaningful?

What more do you want?

[TJD]

I agree that PT are very helpful. However, I would suspect that he is emailed with ideas on a regular basis. He could not possibly respond to all of these.

I am sure that there are some "clues" in PT that many of us do not see and a thread like this might have helped us understand them better.

However, whatever clues there are seem to me to be well hidden.

For example does a low WtSD% indicate a "tight" post flop player. Well in many cases it does but I have several players in my DB who are VERY loose on the flop but regularly fold the turn. If you just look at WtSD and assume that as it is low, he will only continue past the flop with some sort of hand you would be wrong. These guys are a MUST bet at on the turn.

However, as my personal "new" stats have proven to my satisfaction, the information IS there in the PT database, but the data is just not currently presented to us in the most meaningful way.

I have some guys who have NEVER folded to a turn check(raise) and others who fold over 50% of the time are you telling me that is not useful information? Where is THAT stat in PT?

What about the guys in my DB who, with a very high frequency, check(raise) the turn with less than top pair. They are bluffing a lot. I do not want to have played loads of hands against them before I know that. I have data on my bluffers, extracted from PT.

What about the guys who ALWAYS slow play top pair on the flop. Having used the PT database to determine the likely culprits, I even found one who, having raised preflop, still did not bet the flop from EP just so he could CR the turn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif EVERY time he bet he had less than top pair /images/graemlins/smile.gif

My hope was that by using the forum as a discussion place for ideas on how to improve PT, we might be able to approach him with "2+2 have had a long discussion about.... and the consensus is that these would be good things to include....."

This approach would have much more power obviously.

T

[marand]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think a turn aggression of 3 is not meaningful?
Do you think a checkraise % of 4 is not meaningful?
Do you think a folded to river bet of 20 is not meaningful?

What more do you want?

[/ QUOTE ]

How many hands do you need on a player for those stats to be meaningful?

I only use VP$IP, PFR, WentToSD and Postflop AF since I think they become meaningful rather quickly.

I think %bet, %raise, %call for each street would be optimal. But I can't see those stats in Playerview and I am afraid it would take too many hands before the stats could be trusted.

[TJD]

I think the second two are meaningful. The CR% is very useful and PT does break it down by street.

The FrB is OK but for simplicity a number that related it to the SFaH "starting point" is actually more transparent. If we KNOW the player is loose preflop, I believe it is more useful to know what % of the hands he started with he decides to fold on the river (and other streets). It is close, and I think FrB is quite useful.

The first one however is of little use unless you know HOW the figure is arrived at.

Raise/Bet/Call/Fold

Player 1 10/20/10/60
Player 2 20/40/20/20

Both have AF-T of 3.0 but are VERY different.

The graph of AF v total of bets + raises is like a cone starting from the origin. With AF <1, we see that there is a roughly linear relationship between a persons AF and their frequency of betting and raising. In the AF 1-2 range, we see that we have a rectangular distribution, with the % of bets and raises in a (too) wide but fairly predictable range. Above 2 the graph explodes and there can be wild discrepancies between the tight and aggressive postflop players and the loose and aggressive postflop players. In other words unless you KNOW this player or know their call% you have no idea how often they bet and raise based soley on their AF.

In fact someone posted in another thread, words to the effect that "if they have a high AF I assume they are bluffers". This is an incorrect assunption in many cases. Some of the tightest postflop players in my DB have very high AFs because they FOLD a lot.

[ QUOTE ]
What more do you want?

[/ QUOTE ]

A good question and one I was trying to explore. Is your contention then that PT is perfect and nothing can be done to improve it?

Mine is that I see some areas where I can not easily get the information I would like OR maybe I do not SEE what is blindingly obvious.

The discussion was to see "how" we could either a) improve our interpretation of current PT stats or b) find better ways to get the information.

Some people never question. They are always happy to take what they are given. Are you perhaps one of those? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

T

[helpmeout]

If you know what the stats mean then you have a big advantage over other pokertracker users.

Why would you want everyone to have the same information? we already have a lot.

You still have to pay attention at the table and not just play the stats.

If you dont know whether a guys TOT-A stat is high because he bluffs a lot or because he folds a lot then you need to pay a bit more attention.

A guy who plays 80% of hands and has TOT-A of 1.5 is going to be making as many moves as a guy with twice the aggression but way less VPIP.

It doesnt take a great memory to remember if a guy mainly calls, folds or raises on the flop.

As far as folded to river bet, well it is one of the best stats you can have. I dont know what game you play but when a guy has a folded to river bet of 65 and I have a busted draw that I have been betting I will bet it everytime. That is worth 10BB sometimes. If another has FRB of 20 and a scare card comes I am betting for value.

I'm not worried about PT being improved I am more concerned about improving as a player.