View Full Version : A final Borgata hand, until next week that is
Live 10/20 with JBB on my immediate left. 3 bad limpers to me--the 3-bad players at the table--and I say to JBB, "Check out this expert play" as I raise on the button with black 66. JBB folds, the BB, a decent player who will run not-infrequent bluffs calls, as do the limpers.
Flop is 875 all hearts. Checked to me, I bet, BB raises, folded to me and I 3-bet. Comments?
EDIT: Oops. It was 3, not 4 limpers to me.
Honestly I think the preflop raise is awful. By "expert play" standards its not that bad, but it is pretty awful.
Depending on the BB and your liklihood of getting a free card I think the 3 bet is okay. But there's absolutley no chance you have the best hand so if you're not getting a free card you should save yourself the money.
Awful why? Why don't I have the best hand?
A pair of 6's is probably best; but then a pair of 2's probably would be also, or A2o, would you raise those?
You don't understand why I raised preflop. Think about it.
That was kinda the point of my first post. I guess I should be more clear.
Why did you raise preflop?
sfwusc
12-22-2004, 02:08 PM
I like the raise preflop. I think you can only do this on the button though.
It screams overcards.
It is raised back to you after the flop showing you that he thinks you have overcards. The three bet says wrong.
I like the value bet on the flop. You have an open straight draw and everyone calling a bet is EV+ even if you are down.
The raise from the BB killed that thought, but what would he have protected with?
I fear 78, 89, Q8suit, 99 otherwise I think you are good.
SFWUSC
sfwusc
12-22-2004, 02:09 PM
Does he cap back to you? If he has suited hearts, then we are dead.
SFWUSC
otnemem
12-22-2004, 02:32 PM
Evan -
I find that your replies are not very sensible. Firstly, what exactly is wrong with the raise on the button? If I had sixes, I'd like to play them against as few opponents as possible. If I can raise the blinds off of their hands, I'm happy to do so. Also, even if he did have A2o and was ahead, why not bet? If you think you have the best hand, why wouldn't you raise with it? You're rationale basically says, 'yeah, I have the best hand, but why bet it?' Doesn't make much sense to me.
Rico Suave
12-22-2004, 02:37 PM
Sfer:
[ QUOTE ]
Think about it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know that I do not play expertly, so maybe that is why I do not get it as well.
With 5+ limpers, I like a raise.
With 1 limper, maybe 2 (if they like to fold a lot), I like a raise.
Against 3 limpers, I do not like it so much. Why not limp along and play your small pocket pair with 5 or 6 to the flop for one bet rather than 4 to the flop for 2 bets?
Enlighten me.
--Rico
The expert thing was a joke at the table (one needs amusements when getting pwned to the tune of 20 BBs or so) and raising is a long term loser in that spot, but I felt like I had good control over those 3 and that I would get a free turn card juts about always.
DrPublo
12-22-2004, 03:32 PM
Either as few opponents as possible to try and win unimproved, or as many opponents as possible (for one bet, possibly two) for set value.
Raising here does neither. You're not going to knock out the limpers so you're talking about at least a 4 or 5 handed pot, and if you're playing for set value you'd love the blinds to come along.
Also I don't like the flop raise. I probably raise the turn no matter what falls and fold to a 3bet. From opponents' perspective, calling the flop and raising the turn is a much scarier line, so you might be able to steal the pot on ther vier. But thats probably FPS.
The Doc
Entity
12-22-2004, 04:52 PM
I'm not sure about the preflop raise. I still have a tough time with when/how to play those.
Anyway, given BB's description it seems like you've got the best hand a decent percentage of the time on the flop. Wouldn't he play a weak hand like A/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif like this, especially if he put you on overcards? Seems like you've got free card potential + the best hand a good enough percentage for me to like the flop 3-bet, as long as it's head's up.
Rob
BottlesOf
12-22-2004, 04:58 PM
I think you guys are all missing the obvious. He raised, b/c with 4/5 limpers, there's a decent chance I'd complete in the sb. By raising, it's much more likely I fold.
You see, if I was involved in the hand, I'd most likely pwn him. And he did not want me to pwn him, so he raised.
River checkraises with non-standard chip configurations rule. Biatch.
How often you end up with a set with a free look at the turn (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1355225&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)
Rico Suave
12-22-2004, 06:21 PM
Bottlesof:
[ QUOTE ]
You see, if I was involved in the hand, I'd most likely pwn him. And he did not want me to pwn him, so he raised.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this makes much more sense now, and I can see that the raise is clearly correct.
--Rico
private joker
12-22-2004, 06:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If he has suited hearts, then we are dead.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not dead, but pretty close (pair the board and you've got boat redraws). I'd be more inclined to 3-bet this if it were rainbow. Anyone with a heart has a big heart due to the preflop action. So he ain't going anywhere. Your OESD outs are limited to the non-heart ones, so you'd rather win with your pair. But spike a set please.
Entity
12-23-2004, 02:52 PM
Updates?
Joe Tall
12-23-2004, 05:54 PM
I think the preflop raise is awful. By "expert play" standards its not that bad, but it is pretty awful.
He has the button and a tight player in the blinds on his left, the raise is fine. He's neutral EV. I don't always, 'sublime' my pocker pairs on the button, but I do mix it up live with such a raise.
Happy Holidays,
Joe Tall
Joe Tall
12-23-2004, 05:57 PM
You hand is good but vulnerable, I'd raise the turn if you were sure it was going to be bet. But if he's a c/r to get you off, not bet the turn-type, then the 3-bet is fine.
Happy Holidays,
Joe Tall
He folds, which was very good even if he was running a pure steal since like the entire deck kills my hand.
Raising is fun.
Chris Daddy Cool
12-24-2004, 11:53 AM
why people would say the preflop raise is awful baffles me.
example:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=956 229&Forum=f3&Words="44%20button%20hand"&Searchpage=0&Limit=500&Main=956229&Search=true&wh ere=bodysub&Name=7821&daterange=1&newerval=1&newer type=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post956229 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=956 229&Forum=f3&Words=)
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