Sklansky SSHE Hand Quiz Discussion

[x_Gamblor_x]

In Sklansky SSHE book there is a Preflop Play Hand Quiz in which I don't quite understand the answer completely.

The question is as follows:

"You are on the button with KcJs. One player limps and an aggressive player on your right raises. What should you do?"

The book goes on to say the proper thing to do is fold because the ev is negative against a raiser and you will often be dominated.

I myself in this situation would see a flop (call) and bet/raise regardless of what comes to measure the strength of the aggressors hand. Especially if the player is likely to fold under pressure. With only one limper before him he could have anything, but more important is the fact that he has no idea what I have. Of course I would have to be able to walk away if he caps and my hand doesn't improve.

Is this an "incorrect" way to approach this? Am I doomed to lose money this way? What do you think?

[Munga30]

I think you're mistaking the raise by the aggressive player as an isolation raise against the limper. Your line makes a little more sense when interpreted that way. The book response makes more sense when you simply take the information as stated -- one player limps, a second one raises, then the action is on you. KJ does very poorly in this scenario and should be folded. People call it a "trap hand" for a reason. It looks better than it really is.

[Smasharoo]

Is this an "incorrect" way to approach this?


Yes.


Am I doomed to lose money this way?


Yes.

Doooomed!!

[Hermlord]

I *hate* KJ. I just hate it. Against a raiser, I think you should almost always fold. In EP, unless the table is fish city, I fold, though maybe that's a bit conservative. Let's assume a reasonable raiser, since you didn't specify otherwise:

You're boned: AA-JJ, AK, AJ, KQ
You're close: AQ, AT, TT-88 or so
You're golden: KT (possible but pretty unlikely), isolation attempt

So you're usually either pretty far behind or basically in a coin flip. If you hit J or K, you're either way behind (and will lose bets before you figure this out) or clearly ahead and will probably win a small pot. Doesn't seem like a good situation to put yourself in. Unless you consider yourself an excellent hand-reader and postflop player, I fold this to a raise.

Not that it proves anything, but HPFAP puts KJ in group 5, right there with JTo and 65s.

[BaronVonCP]

Using your thought process I could justify raising any two cards here.

[Malcom Reynolds]

KJo is a very weak hand. It's not even suited, which can sometimes save you if you are dominated.

The following hands dominate you:
AK, AJ, KQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ

The following hands are a slight to medium favourite:
KJs, AQ, any pocket pair

You are beating:
QJ, KT, QT,

So what do you think he's raising with? If he he is so loose aggressive preflop that he is raising with any of the above, you are being forced to pay two bets to see a flop when the range of hands your opponent is playing is a favourite against you.

When you are dominated, you have so little equity in the pot that something like 70% of every bet you put in goes to the preflop raiser.

The times that you win will not be nearly enough to make up for the times you lose.

Don't play weak hands against loose raisers. AJo is a CLEAR fold to a raise, and it is a FAR better hand than cheese like KJo.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I myself in this situation would see a flop (call) and bet/raise regardless of what comes to measure the strength of the aggressors hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you're putting 2 BB's into a fairly small pot to "measure the strength of the aggressors hand"? Yeah, I would say that's pretty "incorrect".

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I myself in this situation would see a flop (call) and bet/raise regardless of what comes to measure the strength of the aggressors hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It didn't say LAG raiser. If you're going to see the flop, you sure as hell don't just coldcall it. Especially with KJo.

[ QUOTE ]
With only one limper before him he could have anything, but more important is the fact that he has no idea what I have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually with a limper, the raise tends to be more legit not the other way around. He isn't likely raising with 'anything'.

b