AA- Correct slowdown?

[flair1239]

Villian is very loose passive/Aggressive

Slowed down on turn and called down river. Range of hands I put villian on were a midrange pocket pair, however after the flop action I revised that to a set or 2-pair... opinions on hand reading or play on all streets.
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.20 BB

[zuluking]

I guess I would have capped the flop.

[Smasharoo]

Cap the flop. Cap the turn. Cap the river.

If he has 66 or 2x, pay it off. The other 80% of the time he has TT or whatever will make it worth it.

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap the flop. Cap the turn. Cap the river.

If he has 66 or 2x, pay it off. The other 80% of the time he has TT or whatever will make it worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd call the turn raise and just call the river bet.

[Smasharoo]

I'd call the turn raise and just call the river bet.


Why? Do you really think this 66, JJ or 2x more often than it's 99, TT, QQ, KK, A6s or whatever?

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap the flop. Cap the turn. Cap the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just silly.

[zuluking]

Without knowing how lose the villian is, I'd say that being loose/passive pre-flop could give him a wide range of hands that beat the hero. With his continued aggression post-flop, our hero needs to slow it down a bit.

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cap the flop. Cap the turn. Cap the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, I was trying to be nice about it and look at what you go and do!

[Smasharoo]

That's just silly.


Let's see. What did villian end up having?

[flair1239]

I felt I choked a bit on the flop by not capping. On the turn I was just going to call down, but took his check as a possible sign of weakness.

The river call in my mind is an automatic decision as a midrange PP is still pretty likley.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]

That's just silly.


Let's see. What did villian end up having?

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys want results now? or later

[Smasharoo]

I'm curious. I think the anylisis is pretty straight forward here. You either put him on a weaker PP or a set or some oddball 2x hand. Personally, I'm willing to pay off the set or the duece here because I think the majority of the time this is a worse pair of some kind.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious. I think the anylisis is pretty straight forward here. You either put him on a weaker PP or a set or some oddball 2x hand. Personally, I'm willing to pay off the set or the duece here because I think the majority of the time this is a worse pair of some kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was pretty much my line as well

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm willing to pay off the set or the duece here because I think the majority of the time this is a worse pair of some kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Paying off" is a lot different than capping every street like you suggest. There's no way a sane opponent is capping the turn and river with a weaker hand - he'll have Aces beat every time that happens. Continuing to bet/raise every street is silly, calling down is fine.

In this hand, I would've capped the flop and gone from there. Against some opponents I would raise a turn bet (after capping the flop), against others I would just call down from there without hitting an A.

[Smasharoo]

"Paying off" is a lot different than capping every street like you suggest. There's no way a sane opponent is capping the turn and river with a weaker hand - he'll have Aces beat every time that happens.


They majority of opponents *aren't* sane and will crazily overplay QQ or KK here. I'm willing to overplay AA against them because of that. This isn't a coordinated flop, this isn't a coordinated baord. A very small range of hands beats you here. The overlay is minimal, about 1BB, all other bets will come from one of the heads up parties.

If you think it's more likely that you are beat than you are not beat you should fold to the turn raise. What's the point of spending another 2 BB here if you think you're beaten by "any sane player" every time as he'll have a hand that can beat AA here?

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]

That's just silly.


Let's see. What did villian end up having?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is poor, results-oriented thinking.

I cap this flop and if he leads or c/r the turn, I call down.

-d

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]

"Paying off" is a lot different than capping every street like you suggest. There's no way a sane opponent is capping the turn and river with a weaker hand - he'll have Aces beat every time that happens.


They majority of opponents *aren't* sane and will crazily overplay QQ or KK here. I'm willing to overplay AA against them because of that. This isn't a coordinated flop, this isn't a coordinated baord. A very small range of hands beats you here. The overlay is minimal, about 1BB, all other bets will come from one of the heads up parties.

If you think it's more likely that you are beat than you are not beat you should fold to the turn raise. What's the point of spending another 2 BB here if you think you're beaten by "any sane player" every time as he'll have a hand that can beat AA here?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what Piiop is saying. He's saying that if you re-raise the turn then are capped by the Villain, followed by being led out the river and then 3-betted, he probably has something that beats AA.

[zuluking]

I tried to be nice.

Doing what you suggest is insane and will lose you money in the longterm.

The results do not matter here. Capping the turn and river is the WRONG play. Feel free to play it that way, but believe me when I tell you that you will LOSE money longterm by doing what you suggest.

[Smasharoo]

This is poor, results-oriented thinking.


Of course it isn't. It's a poor trite use of the phrase "results oriented thinking". But, hey, some people just can't help but poorly use cliche's. No harm done. No harm no foul.

All's well that ends well.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
hey, some people just can't help but poorly use cliche's. No harm done. No harm no foul.

[/ QUOTE ]

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]

This is poor, results-oriented thinking.


Of course it isn't. It's a poor trite use of the phrase "results oriented thinking". But, hey, some people just can't help but poorly use cliche's. No harm done. No harm no foul.

All's well that ends well.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a trite cliche. The individual holding of the villain is IMMATERIAL to this. What LIKELY hands does he have, what do his bets and previous tendencies tell you about your holding and how likely it is to win.

-d

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hey, some people just can't help but poorly use cliche's. No harm done. No harm no foul.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

CRAP! You beat me to it!

[Smasharoo]

I tried to be nice.

Doing what you suggest is insane and will lose you money in the longterm.

The results do not matter here. Capping the turn and river is the WRONG play. Feel free to play it that way, but believe me when I tell you that you will LOSE money longterm by doing what you suggest.


I DO play it that way, and I'm winning money over 100K hands playing that way. Again, you're talking about a very, very, uncoordinated board here and assuming your opponent plays as well as you do.

For it to be profitable you need an opponent who will overplay a hand weaker than AA here more than 50% of the time. I've found that consistently to be the case, particularly at microlimits.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap the flop. Cap the turn. Cap the river.

If he has 66 or 2x, pay it off. The other 80% of the time he has TT or whatever will make it worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the fact that he limped before hero makes it more likely than if he had coldcalled, albeit still not a lock, that he has 66 or a hand with a 2. I would have capped the flop, and bet the turn...a raise there means it's calldown time for me.

[John Paul]

In my admittedly limited experience, most of the time a 3-bet indicates a fairly good hand that will beat a pair in my hand, so I would have done what you did. The villian could have A6 or A2 if they are loose and agressive, and the check raise tells me it is more likely to be A2/K2 or worse yet 66. I don't think you should fold, but I would call down.

[Smasharoo]

The individual holding of the villain is IMMATERIAL to this. What LIKELY hands does he have, what do his bets and previous tendencies tell you about your holding and how likely it is to win.


Actually it is fairly material in this case. I'm arguing that it's LIKELY that he holds a hand that does not beat AA here given the board and his betting actions. The consensus seems to be that it's not only likely but VERY unlikely that it's the case.

The chance of me being correct should be tiny if that's the case. Results oriented thinkig would be if the results had been posted, and I was arguing tactical play based upon the results of one hand. I'm not doing that. I'll play the next 100 hands with idnetical actions and identical boards the same way.

[Smasharoo]

It's an intentional joke, you humorless lot. Note the "All's well that ends well" that follows it.

/sigh. I'll try to dumb it down for you guys in the future.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]

The individual holding of the villain is IMMATERIAL to this. What LIKELY hands does he have, what do his bets and previous tendencies tell you about your holding and how likely it is to win.


Actually it is fairly material in this case. I'm arguing that it's LIKELY that he holds a hand that does not beat AA here given the board and his betting actions. The consensus seems to be that it's not only likely but VERY unlikely that it's the case.

The chance of me being correct should be tiny if that's the case. Results oriented thinkig would be if the results had been posted, and I was arguing tactical play based upon the results of one hand. I'm not doing that. I'll play the next 100 hands with idnetical actions and identical boards the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, we were arguing against the merits of capping both the turn and river, saying in that case Hero is most likely beat. In this scenario where Hero started to call down, we all agree that there is a very reasonable chance that he will win. But capping on the big streets seems a little too reckless.

And given the trend of most posts on this board and the title, I think Hero lost here /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Smasharoo]

Again, we were arguing against the merits of capping both the turn and river, saying in that case Hero is most likely beat. In this scenario where Hero started to call down, we all agree that there is a very reasonable chance that he will win.


Fine. Allow me to rephrase then.

Three bet the turn.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]

Again, we were arguing against the merits of capping both the turn and river, saying in that case Hero is most likely beat. In this scenario where Hero started to call down, we all agree that there is a very reasonable chance that he will win.


Fine. Allow me to rephrase then.

Three bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, that's reasonable. But originally you said -

"Cap the flop. Cap the turn. Cap the river."

If you were capped on the turn and led out on the river, would you still advocate raising and capping?

[Smasharoo]

If you were capped on the turn and led out on the river, would you still advocate raising and capping?


I'd call a cap on the turn for certain. I suppose I might just call a bet on the river, but I'd feel all dirty doing it.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]


If you were capped on the turn and led out on the river, would you still advocate raising and capping?


I'd call a cap on the turn for certain. I suppose I might just call a bet on the river, but I'd feel all dirty doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you feel like you're most likely beat?

[jskills]

Personally I would have capped at every street.

I can't see any reason to slow down or to be concerned. Did he hold JJ or a 2? Can't say those are situations to even think about given the lack of any high cards, straight or flush possibilities on the board. I believe that this is a hand to try to get the most out of your aces.

[jskills]

I think the chances of having the aces cracked here are so slim you have to cap every street to try to get the most out of them. As the previous poster said, if you're up against trip 2s or a set of 6s, so be it.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I would have capped at every street.

I can't see any reason to slow down or to be concerned. Did he hold JJ or a 2? Can't say those are situations to even think about given the lack of any high cards, straight or flush possibilities on the board. I believe that this is a hand to try to get the most out of your aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain raising and betting at every opportunity is a reason to be concerned.

[Smasharoo]

Because you feel like you're most likely beat?


No, not really. Mainly because I'd feel guilty making so many BB from one poor bastard with QQ.

[flair1239]

See, I think I should have definetly capped the flop. By not capping, I think I gave him the impression of overcards.

If I had capped, and then gotten c/r on the turn, then that probably means something. As it was without me capping I did not know how to interpret the c/r.

Either way, I think it would be rash to cap all streets. Also keep in mind villian is loose, so he could have a wide variety of holdings.

[Smasharoo]

If I had capped, and then gotten c/r on the turn, then that probably means something. As it was without me capping I did not know how to interpret the c/r.

Either way, I think it would be rash to cap all streets. Also keep in mind villian is loose, so he could have a wide variety of holdings.


You should have definately capped the flop. I'd still three bet a turn CR here, call a cap and call a river bet.

You're right, capping every street is a little much, my point was more that it's benefical to play AA agressively here.

What was the result, anyway, accepting that it's irrelevant to the tacftical decisions here.