AT in the small blind, very loose passive party game

[splashpot]

The game is party 2/4. Very loose, lot of people seeing the flop and a lot of people calling down to the river, even when they didn't hit the flop.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Top pair, top kicker, against this many opponents, I have to protect my hand.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

I'm a little concerned that everyone is calling my bet, but the turn is not a scary card, so i still have to bet to protect my hand. I must assume that since this is an extremely passive table, people are just calling with overcards and draws.

River: (8.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO folds, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

Crap, a king on the river. This is exactly what I assumed my opponents would be calling me with. Am I playing too scared here, do you call the river? Against this many opponents, I assumed one of them had the king.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

[Fat Nicky]

I'd bet the river and think about folding to a raise.

[chief444]

Check/folding that river is pretty weak just because of one overcard. The fact that no one raise pf makes it even more unlikely that a K is out there. I would bet the river.

[djoyce003]

I think this hand was misplayed on every street except preflop. I would have checked the flop and called a late position bet. Would have checked the turn hoping for the same late position bet and then check raised. I want to shake stragglers loose. Nobody is folding a heart flush draw for a raise on the flop but they *might* fold it for a checkraised turn and anyone with just overcards is probably going to lay it down for a check raise. I guess I call the river bet as the pot is laying you almost 10-1. I think if you had gone for the checkraise to protect your hand you might have won this one. Whenever I flop a vulnerable top pair top kicker when the top pair is low I try to go for the checkraise on the flop or the turn to shake off all the loose callers. Seems to work real well for me.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this hand was misplayed on every street except preflop. I would have checked the flop and called a late position bet. Would have checked the turn hoping for the same late position bet and then check raised. I want to shake stragglers loose. Nobody is folding a heart flush draw for a raise on the flop but they *might* fold it for a checkraised turn and anyone with just overcards is probably going to lay it down for a check raise. I guess I call the river bet as the pot is laying you almost 10-1. I think if you had gone for the checkraise to protect your hand you might have won this one. Whenever I flop a vulnerable top pair top kicker when the top pair is low I try to go for the checkraise on the flop or the turn to shake off all the loose callers. Seems to work real well for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to completely disagree. My hand on the flop is very vulnerable. I can't risk it being checked around, giving my opponents a chance to draw an overcard. The same goes for the turn. No one has shown any aggressiveness, so I can't assume one of them will bet, thus ruling out the possibility of a check raise. I am starting to agree with some of the posters that I should have bet the river with the intention of folding to a raise.

[lil']

Great...until the river, where you fall apart. It's not what you wanted to see, but right now you don't know what they have.

Bet the river. Many worse hands will call.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have checked the flop and called a late position bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be great advice if there was a pre-flop raiser to act behind you that will bet most of the time. The pot wasn't raised, there is too much of a risk to having this check through. You need to bet in this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
Would have checked the turn hoping for the same late position bet and then check raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one raised the flop after hero bet. If you check this turn, all overcards, pairs lower than hero's pair of 10s, and flush draws will surely check behind and you just gave another free card.

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is folding a heart flush draw for a raise on the flop but they *might* fold it for a checkraised turn and anyone with just overcards is probably going to lay it down for a check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether they would be calling correctly or incorrectly drawing to a flush, giving a possible free card here is terrible.

[Danenania]

You could consider a flop checkraise, though betting out is okay too. Bet the river.

[bpb]

[ QUOTE ]

Crap, a king on the river. This is exactly what I assumed my opponents would be calling me with. Am I playing too scared here, do you call the river? Against this many opponents, I assumed one of them had the king.



[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 9.5:1 to call the river. Do you think you'll win the pot more than 1 out of every 10.5 times?

I think this fold is terrible. Would you have check-folded on any heart, Q, 9, 8, 7 or 6? All of these cards could plausibly give one of your 3 opponents a better hand.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]


This would be great advice if there was a pre-flop raiser to act behind you that will bet most of the time. The pot wasn't raised, there is too much of a risk to having this check through. You need to bet in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you guys playing at the same party tables as I am. How often does it get checked around and a late position player doesn't bet? In my experience either the button or next to button player bets 95% of the time when it's checked to him.

[ QUOTE ]
Would have checked the turn hoping for the same late position bet and then check raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one raised the flop after hero bet. If you check this turn, all overcards, pairs lower than hero's pair of 10s, and flush draws will surely check behind and you just gave another free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did say you could also checkraise the flop instead of the turn, either/or. Again _someone_ is going to bet this or every single party table i've played at is abnormal.

[BruceF]

I agree with FatNicky - check/raising postflop is just inviting a free card - which is terrible with that board - 2 suited and straight draws. I also think you have to call the river for 1 BB - you will surely win this more than 1 time in 10, which is what the pot is laying.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you guys playing at the same party tables as I am. How often does it get checked around and a late position player doesn't bet? In my experience either the button or next to button player bets 95% of the time when it's checked to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering pre-flop actions and the texture of the board, this flop is just too risky to give a possible free card. And if the player directly behind you bets, you may as well have just bet out.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have checked the flop and called a late position bet. Would have checked the turn hoping for the same late position bet and then check raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is terrible. Betting the flop is good. Checkraising the flop is another fine idea but somewhat risky. Checkcalling the flop to setup a turn checkraise is suicidal. What if he takes a free card on the turn? What if someone calls one on the flop and hits his overcard on the turn?

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is folding a heart flush draw for a raise on the flop but they *might* fold it for a checkraised turn

[/ QUOTE ]
That's ridiculous. A flush draw won't fold. Actually the flush draw (assuming there is one) is probably the person who bet the flop and is now laughing about his free card.

The other issue is that once you get a safe card on the turn you don't really need a checkraise. There will only be 4-5 BB in the pot and most hands don't have very many outs against me. Note that a big draw might have raised the flop bet. I'm content to finish the hand bet-bet and hope to get a lot of callers on the turn and river. There is probably more profit in that than crushing the field with a checkraise. Certainly the potential turn checkraise isn't worth risking a checkthrough.

[djoyce003]

Well I seem to be getting dogpiled by my checkraising idea, but I still think making an opponent with overs or some draw fold or make a mistake by calling is to make them face a double bet on either the flop or the turn. I think you have a super vulnerable hand here and you want people out. NOBODY is going to fold to a single bet, that was evidenced by the way the hand went, you've got to get creative here and force people out, I would rather risk the free card to have a chance to force people out than make 1 small bet that I know isn't going to force anyone out.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
NOBODY is going to fold to a single bet, that was evidenced by the way the hand went

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually this isn't a problem. This is why we play.

I'm more than happy to keep betting these hands in unraised pots and letting people call with all sorts of weak draws. Especially when you consider how often their outs are duplicated or defective (ace overcard anyone?) they throw a ton of money away. Often they put an extra one in on the river just in case bottom pair is good. Yes the beats keep coming but so do my profits.

No way am I going to routinely risk free cards going for checkraises when betting works so well.