57s. Why am I a LAG? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Grease

12-22-2004, 03:18 AM

I didn't realize it at the time, but MP3 is a TAG. MP1 is very LP.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (24 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 26 BB

Brash620

12-22-2004, 03:26 AM

Preflop: Don't like the call.

Flop: ok, you lost your equity edge with all the folds but I don't see the reraise as a horrible play

Turn: Good

River: What scared you? You should have bet/raised

Grease

12-22-2004, 03:28 AM

There would be 6-way action on the flop. I was getting 11-1. Do you think this is marginal? I realize my flop play was pretty poor, but I thought that me having a higher straight than any schmoe with a 5 added value, but I hated to see the folds.

bicyclekick

12-22-2004, 03:33 AM

I like you're play on every street. Not going nuts on the flop would be kinda stupid, i think.

I like the turn 3 bet, and now that he caps there is a good chance higher spades so the check call is definately in order on the river.

preflop was easy.

sthief09

12-22-2004, 03:34 AM

I don't like the flop 3-bet. that's all that I don't like

private joker

12-22-2004, 05:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop 3-bet. that's all that I don't like

[/ QUOTE ]

So your standard PF play with 74s from the BB is to call a raise with it? I must be playing too tight from the blinds, but this is an insta-fold for me unless I was closing the action (UTG made the raise) and 8 other people cold-called it. (Also, this post was mis-titled).

bicyclekick

12-22-2004, 05:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop 3-bet. that's all that I don't like

[/ QUOTE ]

So your standard PF play with 74s from the BB is to call a raise with it? I must be playing too tight from the blinds, but this is an insta-fold for me unless I was closing the action (UTG made the raise) and 8 other people cold-called it. (Also, this post was mis-titled).

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to say i love you're use of 'insta-fold'...it just struck me as funny, and yes you're playing too tight from the blinds. Unless of course yo'ure a bad post-flop player, in which playing hands like this will only cost you more money in hte long run.

nothumb

12-22-2004, 05:51 AM

I call with this too in the BB. One can be fairly sure the limpers will all call and not re-raise, getting likely 11-1 it's an easy call with any 2 suited.

I actually agree with this play throughout. Don't like the title though, error in the hand or not. That belongs in the psych forum.

NT

cpk

12-22-2004, 07:49 AM

So your standard PF play with 74s from the BB is to call a raise with it? I must be playing too tight from the blinds, but this is an insta-fold for me unless I was closing the action (UTG made the raise) and 8 other people cold-called it. (Also, this post was mis-titled).

Let me show you something.

7s 4s 79116 12.02 561200 85.29 17692 2.69 0.133
As Ad 321880 48.92 330131 50.17 5997 0.91 0.493
Qd Kh 76481 11.62 580925 88.29 602 0.09 0.116
Ac 7c 57833 8.79 583276 88.64 16899 2.57 0.100
4c 9h 15060 2.29 627487 95.36 15461 2.35 0.034
Ts 9d 75880 11.53 572855 87.06 9273 1.41 0.122

This horribly contrived example is a fairly hostile situation for 74s. Yet it still manages to win 13.3% of the time. .133 * 11 = 1.463. If you fail to call in the big blind, you are throwing away 92 cents every time you do it. However, most of the time you will not be in such a hostile situation. On average, 74s is good 15.3% of the time. Reduce this a bit to account for the raise and cold calls, and call it 14.5%. This means that your equity is 1.59, and therefore you're throwing more than $1 away every time you make this laydown.

Keep in mind that I'm only talking about those cases where you face 5 or more other players. With fewer players, fewer hands are attractive. Offsuit hands remain thoroughly unattractive against a raise, and I agree they usually must be either raised or folded (usually folded).

When the pot gets this big, you have to play some pretty egregious stuff or you're giving up value. I would agree with you if the equity were something like 1.1, but giving up an entire half small bet is horrid.

cpk

12-22-2004, 08:09 AM

What I can't believe is that this many people folded. Because of this sad fact, you need a slightly better draw to reraise on the flop. But only slightly. Your equity on the reraise is 0.9, so it's only a tiny error. If you had so much as one other caller, it would be sound. Basically the rule is that you need 2 callers with a 9-13 outer, but you are actually ahead with more than 13 outs [eg, if your straight draw was openended or if you had A/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif].

Ignore advice to raise on the river. A TAG is not betting into you with less than a flush. Most flushes beat you. You still have to call, but a raise is silly. He'd have to have a worse hand roughly 2/3 of the time, and that just isn't true.

(I can't believe people would call your flop 3-bet wrong but tell you to raise the river. The former is a very minor error. The latter is preposterous.)

chesspain

12-22-2004, 08:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't realize it at the time, but MP3 is a TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't post information that you didn't have at the time.

Grease

12-22-2004, 02:03 PM

MP3 did indeed have the AK /images/graemlins/spade.gif and I'll work on getting my titles correct. Thanks for the responses.

Kaz The Original

12-22-2004, 02:08 PM

Preflop call is fine in my books. Would anyone object if it was QJ suited? But here you're much less likely to be dominated.

Whether to try for the bet-cap or the check-raise on the flop depends on one thing, the number of people on each side of you and MP3.

You hit the turn like it's your job.

On the river I have to decide if my opponent has an overpair (with a spade), or the flush. I'm not letting this puppy go for 1, but I would let it go for 2 or 3.

private joker

12-23-2004, 05:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So your standard PF play with 74s from the BB is to call a raise with it? I must be playing too tight from the blinds, but this is an insta-fold for me unless I was closing the action (UTG made the raise) and 8 other people cold-called it. (Also, this post was mis-titled).

Let me show you something.

7s 4s 79116 12.02 561200 85.29 17692 2.69 0.133
As Ad 321880 48.92 330131 50.17 5997 0.91 0.493
Qd Kh 76481 11.62 580925 88.29 602 0.09 0.116
Ac 7c 57833 8.79 583276 88.64 16899 2.57 0.100
4c 9h 15060 2.29 627487 95.36 15461 2.35 0.034
Ts 9d 75880 11.53 572855 87.06 9273 1.41 0.122

This horribly contrived example is a fairly hostile situation for 74s. Yet it still manages to win 13.3% of the time. .133 * 11 = 1.463. If you fail to call in the big blind, you are throwing away 92 cents every time you do it. However, most of the time you will not be in such a hostile situation. On average, 74s is good 15.3% of the time. Reduce this a bit to account for the raise and cold calls, and call it 14.5%. This means that your equity is 1.59, and therefore you're throwing more than $1 away every time you make this laydown.

Keep in mind that I'm only talking about those cases where you face 5 or more other players. With fewer players, fewer hands are attractive. Offsuit hands remain thoroughly unattractive against a raise, and I agree they usually must be either raised or folded (usually folded).

When the pot gets this big, you have to play some pretty egregious stuff or you're giving up value. I would agree with you if the equity were something like 1.1, but giving up an entire half small bet is horrid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of this thread, I decided to loosen up in the blinds and play crap suited cards when the pot is monstrous PF. Here's how it went down. I don't think I played it optimally, however.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button 3-bets, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (14.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, Button calls.

River: (17.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 3h 6h (three of a kind, threes).
MP1 has Qs Kh (two pair, queens and threes).
Button has As Ad (two pair, aces and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 23.75 BB.

joker122

12-23-2004, 06:42 AM

and this doesn't even take into account implied odds...

private joker

12-23-2004, 06:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
and this doesn't even take into account implied odds...

[/ QUOTE ]

Which in my case turned out to be quite nice. I was getting 9:1 immediate odds to call the PF 3-bet (which I would never have made before this thread) and after I hit trips I still ended up getting raised on the river by an inferior hand. If I hadn't frozen up I could have 3-bet the river. (The reason I didn't is because I would only get capped by a hand that beats me and due to prior action I was worried QQ was out there).

Nick C

12-23-2004, 07:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was getting 9:1 immediate odds to call the PF 3-bet . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

You did end up getting 9:1 on your preflop call, it's true. But, instead, it could've gotten capped behind you. Then some of the preflop cold-callers could've decided to fold -- which would increase your winning chances somewhat, but you've got to figure your hand is probably a huge underdog to at least one of the preflop raisers' hands and that you'll need to hit the board hard to win.

I don't know. I don't think calling a preflop 3-bet with suited and vaguely connected cards from the big blind is quite the same thing as calling a single raise with them.

cpk

12-23-2004, 07:18 AM

Ack, dude, call one bet with that garbage, but not two. NH, tho. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

cpk

12-23-2004, 07:23 AM

Yep. Implied odds are difficult to calculate because you don't know what you'll have to go through to get there, and you might get there and lose as Grease did.

Thus you could make the case for cold-calling 2 on this basis (as Joker illustrates in this thread), but the problem with doing that is that it could get capped and you're really cold-calling 3. This is ruinous to implied odds.

The moral of the story is that in very loose and somewhat aggressive games, you're going to have to hold your nose and drop a bet in from the BB very frequently.

private joker

12-23-2004, 07:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ack, dude, call one bet with that garbage, but not two. NH, tho. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't the number of bets -- in the 74s example, Hero was getting 8:1 to call one raise, and I was getting 9:1 to call 2 raises. To me it was a matter of math, not bets. And, as the other Joker said, implied odds... anyway, I just wanted to test this theory. I'm only half-serious. I sort of still want to play tighter from the blinds than most of 2+2.

Trix

12-23-2004, 10:37 AM

Dont coldcall 2 bets with trash, you really need the implied odds on these hands.

What about MPs play makes you not want to 3bet the river ?

evain

12-23-2004, 11:27 AM

I think you played the hand perfectly ... except I bet out on the river. If he raises, I just call.

private joker

12-23-2004, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

What about MPs play makes you not want to 3bet the river ?

[/ QUOTE ]

The thought that he could have been one of the players staying in with an overpair (QQ) and just rivered me. In the heat of battle I think I mistakenly thought he had been one of the previous aggressors (there were three: button, UTG, and UTG+1 had all raised and bet in this monster pot), hence being able to put him on QQ. After all this action, why would he raise the river without it? I was declaring I had the trip threes, so he better have something good.

shummie

12-23-2004, 03:42 PM

I would think the implied odds PF for two low suited cards gets canceled out by the times your flush hits but gets beat by a higher one. You lose a lot of money in these instances.

Of course, when you hit trips with a hand like this the implied odds are greater. But PF you're expecting a flush or a straight.

- Jason