The hand that put me on tilt, (need some advice)

[TheJackal]

Ok, I would first off like to say I've been in a dry spell as far as my cash game play. (my NL tournaments on pstars have netted me a lot in the past 3 months). I started out at $3-6 2 years ago and in the early stages played a weak tight game as I was just learning the ropes. I'm happy to say today I'm more of a tight aggresive player, but I still sometimes play to loose as a result of tilt. This hand will illustrate why I went on tilt and something I need to address if I am ever going to be able to be better than a break even player (well for the year I'm up slightly, but if I played my best at all times, I'd be up a lot more).
Last night, I was playing $4-8 with a kill at my local casino. The game was loose and wild, which I like when I'm not getting consistently drawn out on. Anyways 5 or 6 people were taking flops, so I was being a bit more liberal in my starting hand requirements, but not so much that I was playing any 2 cards (a recipe for diaster). Anyways we get a kill, which raises the limits to 8-16. I look down and see AJ of clubs from mid pos. I get two callers from early position (they were both calling EVERY hand without regard to position). I decide to raise, hoping to build this pot if I hit it I can take down a sizeable pot and my hand is good multiway. I get 5 callers, 1 caller to my immediate left, 1 caller from the cutoff, the original person with the kill, and the 2 EP limpers. The flop comes 963 with two clubs. It goes check, check, now to me, well there is no way I am checking this hand, as I have 9 outs to the nuts, and another 6 to probably the best hand. I bet, and everyone but the person with the kill calls. The turn is the ten of diamonds, I bet once again after it is checked, now I get one EP caller and the guy on my left. The river is the queen of spades, I've completely missed my hand. I bet once again, to have only the person on my left call. He flips over T3 for a pair of threes to take down a $300+ pot. After this I go on tilt and leave down $200. Its funny to think these players actually think they made some great play when all he really did was contribute to a pot that I should win about 2 out of 3 times. I dont want to make this sound like a bad beat story if that is how it coming across, I just told it because I wanted to show the factors for why I go on tilt nearly every session. Its almost to the point where I don't like to play poker because this s--- seems to happen all too frequently. I was just wondering how do you all deal with tilt? If I dont address this problem, I will never be a significant winner.

[Derek in NYC]

I play it the same FWIW.

In terms of tilt, I play worst when Im playing at a level where I really care about winning the money in the pot, and I play best where Im at a level where the money just feels like fun money.

Generally, if I find myself tiling but I want to keep playing, I will move down to a lower limit. After an hour or so of lapping the LPPs on 2-4, I'll step back into my regular game.

Works for me.

[lil']

Hoo boy, if you go on tilt every time you are a slight favorite and don't win, you'll be on tilt a lot. You were behind from the flop on. You gotta get over it.

[Derek in NYC]

You know thats a great point... it wasn't really a bad beat (although in any circumstance it is frustrating to see T3 flipped over as a winner after you raised). The reason my post emphasized going down in limits was because I got the impression from the post that this $300 pot felt like a monster pot to the poster, and that winning or losing it would make a difference to him financially.

[TheJackal]

How was I behind on the flop? I had two overcards with the nut flush draw, or 15 outs twice. Check your % before posting. I tilted because he called me with T3, I understand people like this are good for the game, but in the heat of battle you dont think in those terms...

[cdy]

I think the real problem here, is that you should not feel anything like the "heat of the battle" just because this is the kill hand (or any other hand). If this happens, you are playing at a limit too expensive for your roll, and you must account for these types of situations when you play in game like this.

[ThePenguin]

I know that you know this, but you can't let your emotions get in the way of your judgment. I think that for many people going on tilt is a way to victimize themselves. "Poor me, I'm so angry because I can't beat bad players," and "I just can't win" attitudes are begging for positive, sympathetic or empathetic reactions. Going LAG is then a form of self-destructive "look at me! help me!" behavior. People want to be comforted when they are losing in anything, even if they say they don't. This is an unconscious reaction to losing that you can't really help feeling, but you can try to control. The more emotionally involved you are with your cards, the easier it will be to go on tilt, so try to distance yourself emotionally from the game. You can sort of train yourself to take moral victories from bad beats, as long as you can be confident that your played your hand well. Another thing I like to do is to focus less on the hand I'm trying to make, and more on my opponents hands- what they have and what they're trying to make. This helps to disctract me from how "unlucky I am" when I start to tilt, and it has the added bonus of making me play better too! All this psycological mumbo jumbo aside, Derek brings up a good point about limits. Moving down might calm the rage. If you can't afford to lose at the limit you're playing, then its just going to cause that much more agravation.

[lil']

How was I behind on the flop? I had two overcards with the nut flush draw, or 15 outs twice. Check your % before posting.

Heh. You have a little temper there. If you'll note in my original post, I state that you were a slight favorite, but you were losing at the time.

This obviously isn't about my poker knowledge, it's about losing your temper.

but in the heat of battle you dont think in those terms...
Maybe don't think about it so much as a "battle."

Just a thought.

[stonecold]

Im suprised he didnt raise the turn or river if he had T3 for TWO pairs. Maybe one of those really LP...

I feel for you, but its the same for all of us and that is an important part of being a good/great poker player.

[TheJackal]

oh wait, my bad, he had 93 of spades, not T3, it was only a pair of 3's...

[TheJackal]

It's not even about the money really, it's about losing. There is a saying, you are only as good as your last session, well as we speak I busted out of a NL tournament on pstars, I'd say as far as poker is concerned, I suck pretty bad right now. I think I need to start to look at my play and see what I am doing wrong, and also maybe go over some of the basics again. I have been running bad, but I can't say that at least 20% of that has been a negative mindset.
I know everyone hits a rough patch, I just hope I can come away from this losing streak a little better prepared for the next time it happens...

[steamboatin]

You need to get a little perspective here.

You had a big draw that didn't get there, you had lots of outs that didn't show and you go on tilt because a calling station wouldn't lay down the winner.

My read is that you haven't come to grips with the fact that poker is gambling. Just because you read books and study, doesn't mean you deserve to win.

The odds are what they are and they are going to remain the same unless the game is altered or they add more cards to the deck.

When you flop a nut flush draw it gets there roughly one time out of three. Therefore if you continue to think in this manner, you are going to tilt, two times out of three and the fish will feast on your carcass.

If a hand like this puts you on tilt, you are screwed before you start. I would venture to say it will be impossible for you to be a long term winner player until you get the perspective you need.

95% of all poker players are long term losers, so don't think this is an easy task. Every poker player struggles with controling their emotions.

[StraitRazor]

Well... your line on this play makes it look like you have an overpair, AK, or a club draw. Maybe he put you on two of those hands and called thinking his three was good. I've called down draws before with A high and won. (Okay... once, but she was a terrible player and I put her on KQ when she didn't cap the betting preflop.)

Here's the thing I notice most about your hand here. I like my 15-outters too! But you have to keep in mind that when you have a hand like that you are getting paid by every bet that calls you since you have the best of it (until the river).

You mention in this thread that you should win this pot two out of three times... it's a lot closer to one out of three... which shouldn't discourage you from playing it the way you did.

Also, you mention the pot size as being $300+... I'm not going to count it down, but I think you only lost $60+ on this one. Not $300+. Keep your eye on the ball. None of the money in the pot is yours until you win it.

Why try to bluff at a guy you say is clueless? You think he'll fold now? The pot's too big and he has too much in it. Finesse doesn't work here. When I have a big winning night of low-limit... it's also one of the most routine and boring sessions I'll play. I think you should check the turn here to be honest.

On an etiquette point... somebody mentioned that you were behind on the flop and you disputed it... a pair of threes is ahead of ace high. You were behind on the flop. That's a fact.

SR

[wheelz]

FWIW... if he had 93 he flopped two pair. If he had T3 he turned two pair.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
95% of all poker players are long term losers, so don't think this is an easy task. Every poker player struggles with controling their emotions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post about perspective/expectation. I am curious as to where you get the 95% figure?

[TheJackal]

I flopped the nut flush with two overcards, I am favored to win over a pair of threes, if you do not believe me go to twodimes.net or cardplayer.com. He didn't have two pair, he had T3s and the final board was 9362Q, I thought the turn was the ten, but I know he didnt have two pair, so for the sake of argument I'll make it a deuce (whatever it was it neither helped my hand or his). Anyways if someone thinks he actually thought about what I had, the only hand I might play how I did with all the action is AK, but I'd also play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, KQs, AQ, QJs, Ax club draw like that as well. I could go to pokerstove and do a range of hands to show how badly behind he was, but I don't need to do that because I dont think he put me on a hand. He was a calling station who knew that he had a pair of 3's and that I might be bluffing. I doubt he thought beyond that. Since he called the turn with his pair of 3's he has to call the river given how big the pot is. Even beyond this, if I am bluffing, he is no better than 3:1, although it's probably much worse than that (as was the case since he was actually BEHIND on the flop). It's not something I would ever do, in fact I would throw T3s away if I had the kill and it was another $8 to me, I would never voluntarily call a raise with T3s. I know this guy who I played against was a losing player, anytime I see someone call me down like this I know he doesn't think anything through. If he was there to gamble and throw his money away, than I guess he succeeded there. And I believe its more like 90% of players are losing players, not 95%, just my two cents.

[The Goober]

[ QUOTE ]
If he was there to gamble and throw his money away, than I guess he succeeded there.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly... and you should learn to love him for it, not get angry about it.

FWIW, assuming I sneezed and accidently knocked the $16 in pre-flop, I think I'd play the villian's hand the same way.

[TheJackal]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, assuming I sneezed and accidently knocked the $16 in pre-flop, I think I'd play the villian's hand the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's too risky, I'm not raising every hand preflop. Sure if I'm a maniac or just a horribly bad player, I might call the person down. You play with me for an hour, you'd see I'm neither. If I had to rate myself, I'd say I'm above average (if I didn't tilt, I'd say I was a good player). But I'm glad my raises/bets got no respect, I'm just mad about the result, because had it gone the other way, I'd want as much action as possible once I hit my hand. And FWIW, this guy was actually getting angry when he first sat down, because I raised preflop before with AK, to have him bet a rag flop, I called since there was 10.5 bets in the pot and I felt I had 6 clean outs (7:1 to improve). A jack hit the turn, I checked, he checked, river was a king, I bet he called, saying he KNEW I had AK, well if he KNEW that with 100% certainty he should have folded the river. I'm sure he KNEW I had AK again, only to find out I didn't.

[bisonbison]

lil' has taken care of this thread.