bisonbison, please review my stats... i'm running -228.4BB

[arabie]

My sample sizes are very small, but need some advice before continuing. I'm already down 228BB and need some assurance. Should i just wait for sample size to grow, or should i start with some serious game reforms?

Play with mostly between 3-6 players...
5/10 (6MAX)
-----------
Hands-1663
VPIP-24.4
PFR-8.7
W$SD-48.5


Full 10 man ring games
----------------------
5/10-
Hands-1667
VPIP-19.8
PFR-6.45
W$SD-50.2

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
VPIP-24.4
PFR-8.7


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm horrible at 6-max, but I believe you want to be raising about twice as much as that.

Your full ring stats look a little loose/passive, too.

Your sample size is too small, but it also appears that you have pretty big leaks.

[arabie]

I dont doubt my game has leaks, but are these leaks strong enough for me to be an overall loser?

[sthief09]

ok, I'm going to be critical because that's what you're asking for. don't be offended. also, looking back, I rambled a lot. I'm tired as [censored], so try to work through that

you're not ready for 5/10 online, and I can tell simply by looking at your preflop stats. generally, more polished players have some pretty looking preflop stats, which suggests that they've played enough to know what to play and what not to play. it would be tough to make a beginner a 16/10 or 14/8 or something like that. so for one, I can take an educated guess that you don't play especially well postflop.

ok, so what do I mean by pretty preflop stats? mainly, I mean you don't limp that much. limping too much is a sign of not understanding the game. by book learned people, limping too much means they don't understand position particularly well. this is made blatantly obvious by the amount of limping you do in 6-max. position is important in this game. it's not just important, it's critical, and you can't win if you don't understand it. I think 5/10 is the first level where you need to start raising to win pots unimproved. at 3/6 you need to also, to an extent, but most of the raising you do is for value.

also, at 5/10 full, most of the players play reasonably well preflop. that means you're going to have to tighten up. you need to be tighter than them in order to beat the rake. you lose a lot of the edge you have at .5/1 by playing loose but less loose than them. this also means that your mistakes are going to get punished more. if you limp UTG with a small pair it's going to get raised behind you too much for it to be profitable. they like isolating. you need to make small adjustments like this. if you don't, you're going to drown.

so just from looking at your stats, I can see the following problems:
- you don't understand position
- you probably limp too much up front
- you probably don't have much experience
- you aren't loosening up your raising standards enough when it's folded to you in MP or LP
- when there are multiway pots, you probably aren't raising for value or to steal the button enough

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont doubt my game has leaks, but are these leaks strong enough for me to be an overall loser?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh sweet Jebus yes. You're losing a ton of value preflop by not raising more.

Get a good set of preflop standards down, then plug your postflop leaks.

Also, unless you are rich as hell, you might not want to "learn" 6-max at the 5/10 level. Honestly, only raising 8.5 percent in that game is a tremendous leak, from everything I've heard.

[sthief09]

yes. the thing is, you don't just have to be better than your opponents. you have to be significantly better than them so you can beat the rake.

overall I'm only a small winner at 5/10 over a small sample, but when I first went there, I felt completely lost. adjustments are critical. that's probably hurting you more than anything.

that being said, I don't doubt you're running bad, but I highly doubt you're a +EV player at this point

[Tosh]

Those figures would suggest you are too loose and not aggressive enough.

[bisonbison]

bisonbison, please review my stats

Okay.

My sample sizes are very small, but need some advice before continuing.

Okay.

I'm already down 228BB and need some assurance.

I don't do assurance. Or reassurance.



The fundamental question you have to answer is "why are you playing 5/10?" You need to answer this for yourself and for us.

Did you win at 3/6 full?
Did you win at 1/2 6-max?
If so, over how many hands?
If not, why did you move up?
Did your stats look similar?
Can you identify decent and bad players in these games?
Did you datamine before moving up?
Did you consider the differences between these games and the ones you're used to playing?
Are those differences reflected in the choices you've been making?

Other people have pointed out the obvious - you're too loose and too passive. But the more important thing is: how did you end up playing long enough to lose 230BB at a level where you're not prepared to play?

Why did you decide to move up?

Please note: these are not incredulous questions "OMG HOW COULD YOU MOVE UP?" These are the honest things I'd like to know.

[arabie]

Thank you, and i do appreaciate you post.

Things to consider are that my small sample size is probably skewing my results, not necessarily in my favour. I won 5BB/100 at 3/6 for 10,000hands before moving up, so i must've been doing something right.

The 6max advice is great and i should start raising a lot more preflop. I am probably giving up a little too much and calling down in some bad spots.

What i don't understand about the fact that you critize my preflop stats in 10man, is that i follow SSH's advice on the tight tables almost precisely. I definitely limp too much when its folded to me, but can't figure out a standard for that.

Do you think there is any chance the building the sample size will help, or are my current stats more than enough evidence?

Thanks, i appreaciated the advice.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
I won 5BB/100 at 3/6 for 10,000hands

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't enough to determine that you're a winning player. You were most likely running very hot. Is 3/6 where you started?

A note on following the SSH preflop chart: There are a lot of subtle factors that come into play preflop, and following a chart strictly, even the SSH chart, is not going to always result in optimal play.

You need to understand WHY you're making the plays that you are, not just follow a chart.

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely limp too much when its folded to me, but can't figure out a standard for that.


[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't sound like something that Ed Miller would advocate.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think there is any chance the building the sample size will help, or are my current stats more than enough evidence?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you are a winning player in the 5/10 full or 6-max game.

You should really consider dropping a few levels to learn the game.

Also, post your aggression factors on the flop, turn and river. They can be very telling.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
I won 5BB/100 at 3/6 for 10,000hands before moving up, so i must've been doing something right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so incredibly fallacious as to be hilarious.

Over the course of 10k 3/6 hands, 5 BB/100 is clearly an anomly even for a solid player. Meanwhile, a -200 BB downswing is pushing it in terms of being able to blame variance.

Put this way, it is much more likely that you're a losing/breakeven/slight winner who hit a real good run of cards during that first 10k than it is that you're a solid winner hitting a -200 BB downswing.

It's not that the latter is impossible, but just that it is far more likely (just been reading Sklansky's "Poker Gaming and Life" which talks about these either/or scenarios, sort of).

Others have identified potential serious leaks in your preflop play alone, and post flop leaks are certainly a possibility too.

Don't take this too harshly, because I'm hitting a pretty huge rough skid myself and having to consider whether I'm much of a winning player. Mine is far less dramatic than yours (mine's a 20kish less than break even streak), but anytime you hit a wall like that, you need to stop, reevaluate the situation, reevaluate your play, and possibly consider dropping back down. Unless, as someone, you're rich and willing to possibly finance your losing play at your current limit before turning it around. If you're playing on a limited, one-time bankroll, then you gotta slow up and think this through (way before 225 BBs, btw... 100 BBs is enough for me to say "whoa").

[arabie]

"The fundamental question you have to answer is "why are you playing 5/10?" You need to answer this for yourself and for us.

Did you win at 3/6 full?"

Yes, i won 5BB/100 for 10,000 hands at 3/6 Party Full. I also 6BB/100 for 1,200 hands at Absolute 3/6 Full table.

"Did you win at 1/2 6-max?"
Didn't try it. I didn't really understand how drastic the play adjustments for 6max were untill recently. The advice i got on this thread has been extremely helpful for six max and my new PFR% is at 14.73 and VPIP is at 26, and my results have improved dramatically!

At 1/2 full ring games i won 3BB/100 for 6,700.

"Did your stats look similar?"

Similar... my PFR was generally higher, closer to 8%. I played on quite a few accounts (trying to get bonuses), but VPIP on the previous games is an avg. of about 20%

"Can you identify decent and bad players in these games?"

Yes, definitely.

"Did you datamine before moving up?"

What does this mean?

"Did you consider the differences between these games and the ones you're used to playing?"

Yes and this affected my play for the worse. When moving up i mentally convinced myself to play more passivily out of fear. Then i would notice this, and incorrectly be aggressive just for the sake of counteracting it. This is a psychological error i can now see in hindsight.

Also, my NL and lower limit success were the real motivation for moving up.

"Are those differences reflected in the choices you've been making?"

See above..

Please note:
Anyways, to start, i miscalculated my original BB loss and it was actually only -167BB (i accidently added the player belows stats). Also, since this thread, i've made back 116BB of that -167. Although, these improvements occured after i re-read SSH over the holiday and really freshened up my game. I think my game started out okay at the lower limits, but weakened with time. There are specific errors that i was making, and was able to specifically identify after re-reading the book. These include:

-Not waiting for a bigger edge on the turn.
-Not concentrating enough on position during flop play
-Not thoroughly analyzing my opponents (this is mostly from 4tabling and consistantly being destracted by TV and such)
-Several river play mistakes like misplaying overcalls...

I feel like my play has improved dramatically and the motivation came from this thread. I've now refreshened all my old skills and added tons of new tactics and some experience. Overall, i'm concentrating more on my game, and thoroughly analyzing my decisions. My problem was that i started getting lazy and mechanically simple, but since re-reading the book i now have identified many errors and am making the necessary adjustments. I will repost my 5/10 stats when i reach 10,000 hands to update you, and perhaps ask for further advice.

I sort of fixed most of my problems before giving you a chance to answer, but you gave me the necessary questions to ask myself, and this motivated my game reform. I thank you and the other posters for your advice, especially the poster who offered the 6max advice that has proven to be very useful. If you have any other specific stats questions or any advice you think i might find useful, your help is always apprecaited. Also, i'm about to read theory of poker, which i'm hoping will also help seal some holes.

Thanks again..

[arkady]

josh = G0D

...*bows*....

[arkady]

i just started playing 6 max after abusing the 5/10 full for a bit...and my stats are:

Hands: Almost 4k
VPIP: 18.30
PFR: 14.55
W$SD: 61.84

....BIG pimpin'

[arabie]

How is your VPIP so low in 6max?

[lu_hawk]

[ QUOTE ]
I won 5BB/100 at 3/6 for 10,000hands before moving up, so i must've been doing something right.


[/ QUOTE ]

When you win you are doing something right but when you are lose it is because of sample size. Be honest with yourself. Everything sthief said was right your preflop stats indicate you don't know how to play shorthanded.

[arabie]

Yes, i definitely agree. I didn't realize at the time there were drastic adjustments to be made for 6max. Since the advice of the thread, my stats and play for 6max and full table has improved dramatically (see my response to bisonbison below).

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
"The fundamental question you have to answer is "why are you playing 5/10?" You need to answer this for yourself and for us.

Did you win at 3/6 full?"

Yes, i won 5BB/100 for 10,000 hands at 3/6 Party Full. I also 6BB/100 for 1,200 hands at Absolute 3/6 Full table.

"Did you win at 1/2 6-max?"
Didn't try it. I didn't really understand how drastic the play adjustments for 6max were untill recently. The advice i got on this thread has been extremely helpful for six max and my new PFR% is at 14.73 and VPIP is at 26, and my results have improved dramatically!

At 1/2 full ring games i won 3BB/100 for 6,700.

"Did your stats look similar?"

Similar... my PFR was generally higher, closer to 8%. I played on quite a few accounts (trying to get bonuses), but VPIP on the previous games is an avg. of about 20%

"Can you identify decent and bad players in these games?"

Yes, definitely.

"Did you datamine before moving up?"

What does this mean?

"Did you consider the differences between these games and the ones you're used to playing?"

Yes and this affected my play for the worse. When moving up i mentally convinced myself to play more passivily out of fear. Then i would notice this, and incorrectly be aggressive just for the sake of counteracting it. This is a psychological error i can now see in hindsight.

Also, my NL and lower limit success were the real motivation for moving up.

"Are those differences reflected in the choices you've been making?"

See above..

Please note:
Anyways, to start, i miscalculated my original BB loss and it was actually only -167BB (i accidently added the player belows stats). Also, since this thread, i've made back 116BB of that -167. Although, these improvements occured after i re-read SSH over the holiday and really freshened up my game. I think my game started out okay at the lower limits, but weakened with time. There are specific errors that i was making, and was able to specifically identify after re-reading the book. These include:

-Not waiting for a bigger edge on the turn.
-Not concentrating enough on position during flop play
-Not thoroughly analyzing my opponents (this is mostly from 4tabling and consistantly being destracted by TV and such)
-Several river play mistakes like misplaying overcalls...

I feel like my play has improved dramatically and the motivation came from this thread. I've now refreshened all my old skills and added tons of new tactics and some experience. Overall, i'm concentrating more on my game, and thoroughly analyzing my decisions. My problem was that i started getting lazy and mechanically simple, but since re-reading the book i now have identified many errors and am making the necessary adjustments. I will repost my 5/10 stats when i reach 10,000 hands to update you, and perhaps ask for further advice.

I sort of fixed most of my problems before giving you a chance to answer, but you gave me the necessary questions to ask myself, and this motivated my game reform. I thank you and the other posters for your advice, especially the poster who offered the 6max advice that has proven to be very useful. If you have any other specific stats questions or any advice you think i might find useful, your help is always apprecaited. Also, i'm about to read theory of poker, which i'm hoping will also help seal some holes.

Thanks again..

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but since only 8 days have passed between your original post and this new follow-up "I'm a winning player now" post, it's much more likely you're running well than it is you've magically become a winning player.

You may be playing better and have better-looking stats, but it's still highly unlikely you've improved that dramatically.

PS 6000 hands, 10000 hands - these mean close to nothing in terms of evaluating your true win rate. To put it into perspective, davidross (a longtime poster who plays online for a living, 40-50 hrs/week, and consistently wins in the 1-2BB/100 range at 15/30) plays about 15000 hands/week and he's had losing weeks.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
yes. the thing is, you don't just have to be better than your opponents. you have to be significantly better than them so you can beat the rake.


[/ QUOTE ]

So many people seem to neglect that.

[ QUOTE ]
TURNING 21 IN VEGAS

[/ QUOTE ]

Soon?

[sfer]

He is as of two days ago. But he's likely neither posting nor reading, since he's in Vegas.

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
I won 5BB/100 at 3/6 for 10,000hands before moving up, so i must've been doing something right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really isn't true. Hopefully, you'll be convinced of that and save some money and work on your game. You've come to the right place.

[donger]

Can anybody point me at some good posts or FAQs about data-mining for small stakes hold em? I'm curious how my stats compare. I've built a sizeable BR playing 3/6, and would like to plug any gaping leaks in my game before I move to 5/10 and beyond.

[BottlesOf]

I think you're confusing terms. Data mining refers to keeping multiple party tables open and absorbing tons of stats on players.

What I think you want is poker tracker, which allows you to keep records of your play and stats and results. You need this if you want to seriously play and evaluate your game. I'd say where you can get it, but that might cross the spam line. Think of the obvious place. Remember it's called pokertracker.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're confusing terms. Data mining refers to keeping multiple party tables open and absorbing tons of stats on players.

What I think you want is poker tracker, which allows you to keep records of your play and stats and results. You need this if you want to seriously play and evaluate your game. I'd say where you can get it, but that might cross the spam line. Think of the obvious place. Remember it's called pokertracker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply.
I have poker tracker and use it religiously. I was just curious if there's any posts on getting the most out of the statistics. I took 'data mining' to mean wading through poker tracker's statistics and identifying leaks.

[BottlesOf]

Oh good deal then. Yes there are some. You should have bison's autorating thingy set up, but don't pm him about it or he might go crazy.

I don't have any threads on this subject in my favorites, or I'd hook you up. I found just discussing certain things with players I know and respect works very well (either on these boards or not).

[SamIAm]

Datamining usually means keeping tons of tables open to gather info on players before you see them. You can use multiple skins to have 12 tables open, gathering as much data as possible.

The recent patch allows for importing HH files from the harddrive. As long as you patched within the last few months, you should have this feature. If you can't find it, feel free to send me a PM.
-Sam

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh good deal then. Yes there are some. You should have bison's autorating thingy set up, but don't pm him about it or he might go crazy.

I don't have any threads on this subject in my favorites, or I'd hook you up. I found just discussing certain things with players I know and respect works very well (either on these boards or not).

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, JBB. I'll start my own how-are-my-stats thread soon. (instead of co-opting this one /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

[arabie]

No doubt. Although, I was a winning player even with the previous BB loss. I was cutting into my winnings and after today, i'm currently almost breakeven in 5/10. I can't confirm if i'll be a consistent winner there, but i've got well over 10,000 hands for each 3/6, 2/4, (7,000hands)1/2, NL.5, NL1, that all are consistent winners above 3BB/100 (except 2/4 at 2BB/100). I've also got a few thousand B&M hands in 5/10 and NL-2/5 that are very successful. I'm sure there is a chance this is all luck, but it sure has felt like a tough road through tons and tons of bads beats, and have no reason to believe i was extraordinarily lucky (if not even very unlucky). What do you think?