Aggressiveness is overrated...

[MoDOH]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

let me just comment on the preflop. If UTG hadn´t limped I would have mucked this hand preflop...

no real reads as I am new to the table

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (11.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (11.66 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls...

[Derek in NYC]

This hand was played poorly, and the pot was large. On the flop, you may be facing two pair or a somewhat less likely gutshot, so why would you not raise? On the turn there is clearly a flush draw, so again, why are you not raising? On the river all the chickens come home to roost and you have a double-threat card, so you can neither raise nor call with much enthusiasm.

What I find even odder about this line is that in a different thread yesterday you were talking about "raising to protect your hand" with mere overcards. The pot size there (12 SBs) and here (11.5 SBs) are basically the same, as is the size of the field.

How can you reconcile raising with overcards to protect your hand, when you don't raise with a set?

[rwinns]

You should rase the turn. If your up against AK then you will get rerased and can cap. Then lead out on the river. I think you won this hand but i dont like your line. To many times you will get sucked out on by not being aggressive.

[Grisgra]

I concur with Derek. If it had been one bet to the flop, fine -- but the pot is BIG at this point. I raise the flop, try to chase out anyone that might be holding a 5. And lord, if I don't raise the flop, I sure in the hell raise the turn.

[runa]

You have to play this fast on the flop and put in at least 1 raise on the turn if its capped on the flop. Aggressiveness is definitely not overrated in these situations.

[shabamgoddam]

I agree w/ derek aggression is certainly not over-rated. Small pocket pairs are worth calling 1 bet to see a flop because if you flop a set you've got a firm grip on the hand. I can understand smooth calling a flop bet with intention of charging on the turn. However, not raising the turn and charging the draws is almost a sin, you have to be far ahead of utg limping with Ax. Sets need to be protected against draw heavy boards with aggresive play. I think if you showed more aggression you would have had a better idea of were you stood and the river would play easier. you need to charge utg to draw with Ax to make up for the times he sucks out on you. Moral of the story: aggression is NOT over-rated. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[MoDOH]

Now please come on now...

I am not saying that I played this hand optimally, but every decision I made was done so with a purpose.
First of all let´s just make it clear that if there had been a flush draw or even the possibility of an OESD (56 I don´t think is very likely) I would have been the first one to go ballistic on the flop onwards.

That being said,take a look at the action preflop and on the flop,and the cards out there on the flop. I think it´s pretty safe to say that I am holding close to a monster hand. Sure the pot is big and winning it would be nice but I think it´s safe to say that I have a HUGE pot equity here (unless CO holds AA...) and the only draw that is out there is a gutshot draw holding a unlikely 2 or a 5....

Now CO was the aggressor preflop, but UTG bets out on a pretty ragged flop. now to me that looks either like a weak ace or perhaps some kind of two pair hand.
Now CO could have A with a good kicker but he could also be raising with any other kind of hand, like KK-99 or any two big broadway cards.

Now raising this particular flop I don´t even consider to be an option. Better to just call giving CO reason to stay with his non A hands and raising with his A hands.

On the Turn I choose to call again for much the same reasons as on the flop,had there been just one more opponent in the pot I think I would have raised. If CO is slowplaying a big A I will get some really juicy action but if he doesn´t he will most likely fold.
Now any one hand holding a single pair is now drawing dead to my set. And the BD flush and the gutshots (same as on the flop plus the unlikely JQ) out there are unlikely in my opinion.

On the river I couldn´t have had a worse card, any other card than specifically the 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif I would have raised. But the combined possibility of both the straight and the FD made me go for the overcalls on the river,this might seem inconsistent with the reasoning on the Turn but both draws on the river made me hesitate...

Now I don´t think I played this perfectly,far from it. But it´s a line I think is reasonable. On the flop I don´t even think it´s close. Turn can definitely be argued to raise. And also the river.
But to assume that raising is always the preferred choice I think is wrong. don´t take me wrong I have a very high aggression factor. But sometimes being passive can give you even more action than being aggressive would have.

And about the overcards post. I never said anywhere in that post that my raise was because I wanted to "protect my hand", I frankly don´t know where you got that from. On the contrary if you read my original post you can see that I Imply that my raise was made partly because of the possibility of getting a free card...

[Derek in NYC]

I always play a small set fast against a large field, regardless of the board. On the flop, your 444 is not the invulnerable hand you think it is, as any of a number of pocket pairs higher than you can hit their 2 outers, or as I mentioned, there are some 4-out draws that can beat you as well. This is a big hand, not a monster. (Against a small field, I would agree that you can slow down.) Not raising the turn is terrible under any circumstances.

[steamboatin]

Jam the pot! This is exactly how to get sucked out. Make them pay through the nose so you win enough chips when your set is good to cover the times they suck out.

[Jonny Melon]

There is a time and a place to slowplay. This isn't it. I can forgive the flop call to get the overcallers, but you must raise the turn if you slowplay the flop, especially since the K opened up a fresh vault of draws. Why would you not charge these draws on the turn? More importantly, why would you give the weaker draws the implied odds to call correctly on the turn?

Jon

[MoDOH]

[ QUOTE ]
I always play a small set fast against a large field...

[/ QUOTE ]

As do I, usually.

[ QUOTE ]
..., regardless of the board

[/ QUOTE ]

Well no. I do think about the board and how the action unfolds before making my decision

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, your 444 is not the invulnerable hand you think it is, as any of a number of pocket pairs higher than you can hit their 2 outers

[/ QUOTE ]

I don´t think it´s invulnerable but I do think it has a HUGE equity as most hands are drawing close to dead and there are few likely drawing hands out there. And if someone want´s to play their two outers, fine by me. They are actually making me money if they choose to continue with those...

[ QUOTE ]
there are some 4-out draws that can beat you as well

[/ QUOTE ]

But do you really honestly think that it´s likely that such a holding is out there? Had the 3,4 been 6,7 or 7,8 instead I would have agreed but not with 3,4. I think the chances are very small that a 4-out draw is out there...

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the turn is terrible under any circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn´t say terrible but it´s certainly very debatable...

[helpmeout]

You have to raise this flop to chase out 5s and 2s, these are the hands that will most likely beat you.

[MoDOH]

[ QUOTE ]
More importantly, why would you give the weaker draws the implied odds to call correctly on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
What weaker draws are you referring to that are getting the correct implied odds to call this Turn? Any two pair hand except AK,which I hope CO has, are certainly not getting proper odds to call this turn...

And regarding the other draws. I don´t think it´s likely that either the CO (pf aggressor) or button (CC) is holding a 2 or 5 in their hands.And the same can be said about TJ or QJ.And since UTG is betting this board I think it´s highly unlikely he holds any of those hands also...

[Jonny Melon]

Why, at bad 2/4 tables, would someone sticking around with a gutshot for 1 bet in a decent pot surprise you? and by calling the flop, you are giving gutshots the correct implied odds to peel one off to see the river. (Button, for example, is getting a clean 10.5:1 to see the river)

Bottom line is you need to protect your hand. And sets need protecting too.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
let me just comment on the preflop

[/ QUOTE ]
(what should have followed) "it was the only street I played well"

[MoDOH]

[ QUOTE ]
Why, at bad 2/4 tables, would someone sticking around with a gutshot for 1 bet in a decent pot surprise you?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn´t, what I am questioning is the likelyhood of any one of my opponents to hold a hand that a gutshot is likely on the flop and Turn...

After all don´t you agree that the odds for the PF aggressor a Coldcaller and a flopbettor to hold any one of those holdings are unlikely? Do you agree that if the BB had been in the hand the odds for a hand like that would go up?

Once again I don´t say that you are wrong. Just look the action,the players and the board...

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Now raising this particular flop I don´t even consider to be an option. Better to just call giving CO reason to stay with his non A hands and raising with his A hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the problem with your thinking. You're giving your opponents too much credit.

Bad players like to gamb00l. They will stay even if you raise the flop.

When I flop a set, I like to pour chips by the bucketful into the center of the table, metaphorically speaking.

All that said, I could mayyyyyyyybe understand smooth calling in this situation every now and again.

By comparison, not raising the turn is HORRIBLE. It's just a bad play, through and through. Quit trying to defend it.

[Kaz The Original]

Preflop, if the table is loose enough this is fine. Barring a read on the table I fold. I like to give them credit for great play, and be happily surprised to find it otherwise time and time again.

Raise the flop! You have a good hand, and flop raises aren't respected.

On the turn, given that you played that flop like you did, I raise. This is to protect primarily against spades, but also gutshots.

On the river, being that you played as you did, I would raise. Since the board is so threatening, it is quite possible you will not have to pay off another bet if he has the low straight, and possible he will not raise with the high one. Not to mention, he will call when you are ahead enough % of the time.

*COUGH FPS COUGH*

[Jonny Melon]

Since 2 players limped before the raise, and BBs have a tendency to call raises with any 2 suited, you could see 55, A2s, A5s, 67s, K5s, K2s, and all sorts of other crazy shiite. I am constantly astounded by the crap people limp with, and some of thes (like 55 and A5s) aren't even bad calls from MP w/ 2 limpers. And the way it played out, it looks like your opponents (besides the bettor) are on draws. So, yes, there are many 4+ outers you have to protect your hand against. And if they call, then it's +EV for you.

[MoDOH]

[ QUOTE ]
Since 2 players limped before the raise, and BBs have a tendency to call raises with any 2 suited, you could see 55, A2s, A5s, 67s, K5s, K2s, and all sorts of other crazy shiite

[/ QUOTE ]


True, But in this hand the BB folded preflop and the limpers either folded or bet out on the flop. The only other people left are a freflop aggressor and someone who coldcalled 2 bets... My point is that I think it´s very unlikely that either one of those opponents have one of those drawing hands based on their actions...

[sthief09]

no, the river is fine

[MoDOH]

[ QUOTE ]
On the river, being that you played as you did, I would raise. Since the board is so threatening, it is quite possible you will not have to pay off another bet if he has the low straight, and possible he will not raise with the high one. Not to mention, he will call when you are ahead enough % of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably right in this analysis...

[ QUOTE ]
*COUGH FPS COUGH*

[/ QUOTE ]

...and probably in this one too... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Sarge85]

http://www.titch.net/mary%20thinks%20its%20awful.gif

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[dblgutshot]

Raising also gives you a lot more bets if UTG decides to go to war with 33 or A3s

[stonecold]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
More importantly, why would you give the weaker draws the implied odds to call correctly on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
What weaker draws are you referring to that are getting the correct implied odds to call this Turn? Any two pair hand except AK,which I hope CO has, are certainly not getting proper odds to call this turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

You said that you hoped he had AK ! why not raise turn and just maybe you get button in the middle of a war...

he has 4 outs if he has AK and u just call and dont make him pay for them ?

[Evan]

Fair enough. I didn't realize the 2 mattered. I guess batting .500 isn't that bad. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[EliteNinja]

[ QUOTE ]
You should rase the turn. If your up against AK then you will get rerased and can cap. Then lead out on the river. I think you won this hand but i dont like your line. To many times you will get sucked out on by not being aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, raise the turn. Gotta protect!