Icky TT

[Danenania]

Nothing remarkable as far as reads go. You can assume that all players are a little too loose preflop and capable of random aggression postflop, but no one is insane.

The way I played this made me feel icky. Give me some help/castigation.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks.

River: (8 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB

[Danenania]

Bizump before lizunch. I know 15/30 isn't officially SS but I like you guys better. Just pretend I'm popular.

[MarkD]

Tough hand. I'll have to go through it street by street to figure out if I like it.

Pre-flop: This is fine.

Flop: Checking is the correct course of action. I want to see if MP1 bets since he is more likely to have AQ or KQ then MP2. If MP1 checks his hand still isn't defined and if MP2 bets his hand still isn't defined, but checking is the correct play. When MP2 bets and SB calls you don't yet know if your hand is any good but your hand certainly isn't strong enough for protection - and I want to know what MP1 is going to do. ie. Is he going to CR this flop?

I like the check/call approach on the flop. Your equity is tenuous at best at this point, and you don't really know where you are at. On top of this no other action can really help you so check/call is the best move IMO.

Turn: Yah, this is where I don't like it. Initially it didn't seem too bad, but now I don't like it. I don't like it because it's inconsistent with the motivations I outlined above with regards to check/calling the flop.

The 7/images/graemlins/club.gif is almost a blank and since MP1 didn't CR the flop his hand is something like AJ, KJ, AT, 99, 88, 77, 66. He may have a singleton heart but I don't think he has two. He may have two clubs but there is nothing you can do about that.

SB has done nothing but call so far. Sure he coldcalled 3 pre-flop so could have KQ or QJ, but I think it's more likely that he has a heart draw. He also could have flopped a set and decided to slowplay it.

MP2's hand is still undefined but odds are that it's AK and if it is he can't raise you on the turn (unless it's AK/images/graemlins/club.gif's or /images/graemlins/heart.gif's), but he can raise you with AA, KK or QQ (the only hands you are really afraid that he holds).

So, betting the turn protects your hand (somewhat) as well as defines your opponents holdings as well. I think you should bet the turn and fold to a raise.

River: /shrug - it looks like a value bet but it could be an 8 or a smaller card, or even 99. I think you are beat but I probably call. You played meakly on the three previous streets so your hand is a complete mystery. I'm not afraid of the two players behind me since they both checked the turn (ie. they have sh*t).

[MVicuna]

Hi,

From my understanding of 15/30 Preflop agression with weaker then expected holdings is the norm? What I see is an MP open raise and an MP isolation raise, I think capping with TT is correct here to put the fear into them.

With only 1 over card I'm betting till raised and then deciding what I want to do.

Or CR the flop and fold to a 3 bet if it comes from a predictable player. Other wise with just 1 over card its a hard position your in. Pots pretty darn big. I think calling down is what you have to do.

Later,
MarkV.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
From my understanding of 15/30 Preflop agression with weaker then expected holdings is the norm? What I see is an MP open raise and an MP isolation raise, I think capping with TT is correct here to put the fear into them.

With only 1 over card I'm betting till raised and then deciding what I want to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this type of perception, and the response to that perception, is partially responsible for the hyperagressiveness of the 15 game.

Passivity is a virtue in the 15.

[Danenania]

Hey MarkD,

Thanks for the great response. After thinking through this hand a bit more I have come to agree with you. I can't c/r the flop as that will simply bloat the pot when my equity isn't very good. I can't c/r the turn because I can't really expect a worse hand than mine to bet this turn. Therefore, since giving a free turn card is a disaster, I really like the idea of betting out with the plan of folding to a raise. The only slight problem as you mention is that I am somewhat opened up to a semibluff raise from AKs with the flush draw but this scenario is rare enough that I don't think it ruins the plan.

Results: SB ended up having 88 /images/graemlins/mad.gif for the rivered set and took the pot. I allllmost made it.

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey MarkD,

Thanks for the great response. After thinking through this hand a bit more I have come to agree with you. I can't c/r the flop as that will simply bloat the pot when my equity isn't very good. I can't c/r the turn because I can't really expect a worse hand than mine to bet this turn. Therefore, since giving a free turn card is a disaster, I really like the idea of betting out with the plan of folding to a raise. The only slight problem as you mention is that I am somewhat opened up to a semibluff raise from AKs with the flush draw but this scenario is rare enough that I don't think it ruins the plan.

Results: SB ended up having 88 /images/graemlins/mad.gif for the rivered set and took the pot. I allllmost made it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post-flop, I think check-call the flop and then bet-fold on the turn is good. If unraised on your turn bet, then what do you do on a river...
club?
heart?
overcard?
ten?
brick?

That's where I'd be real lost, I think -- if I check-called the flop and then bet out the turn and got called but not raised, I'd be a total river mess.

Cold-calling w/ TT preflop feels the most icky to me here. Is this kind of standard for the 15? Player dependent? At 2/4 and 3/6 I'm either capping or folding, depending on my read of the 3-bettor.

[Danenania]

I'd bet the river if I think worse hands will call often enough. It would depend a lot on who called the turn after I bet and the specific rank of the card (if it's a club/heart/brick).

"Cold-calling w/ TT preflop feels the most icky to me here."

Well folding is out of the question I think as I have odds to call for set value alone (both pot odds and implied odds). I guess I could have capped though SB's coldcall really dissuaded me because it took us out of steal-raise-isolation raise territory and setup a genuine multi-way pot. I'm not sure if I have the equity I'd need to cap and I don't think over representing is worth much when it's going to the flop 4-handed.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Bizump before lizunch. I know 15/30 isn't officially SS but I like you guys better. Just pretend I'm popular.

[/ QUOTE ]


sure it is SS. it even says so in the FAQ

I think it's one of those hands that you really hate afterwards but it's hard to play any differently. sometimes you just have to check and let things develop when you're out of position.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

But its a pair of Tens, you'd love to have an MP open raiser with something like AJ/KQ/Axs decide he doesn't want to play for a cap. But No way he can feel he's safe if he has to call 2 cold.

Not tossing in that extra 1SB preflop or 1SB post flop cost him that pot. At no point did HERO EVER figure out where he was or annouce he has a premium hand and had more then his fair share of equity.

His passivity lost him a big pot. He should have taken control somewhere in this pot.

Later,
MArkV.

[sfer]

From my limited experience at 15 I think you played it fine. TT is much too much of a hand to fold on the river for a single bet on that board, in that game, even with potential overcalls behind you. I just don't see how you can either really protect your hand or let it go, so I think you probably found the best line there.

[Danenania]

Yeah I think I overreacted at first as to how bad it was. I now believe betting the turn is right but checking probably wasn't a huge mistake and could have hypothetically saved me some money. I'm finding these situations more common at higher limits as it's hard to proceed when the agressiveness of the game punishes both marginal folds and marginal bets/raises. I guess at these times calling becomes the lost art.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
But its a pair of Tens, you'd love to have an MP open raiser with something like AJ/KQ/Axs decide he doesn't want to play for a cap. But No way he can feel he's safe if he has to call 2 cold.

Not tossing in that extra 1SB preflop or 1SB post flop cost him that pot. At no point did HERO EVER figure out where he was or annouce he has a premium hand and had more then his fair share of equity.

His passivity lost him a big pot. He should have taken control somewhere in this pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

This entire post is results oriented. The guy called the flop with 88 - he's going to call with your presecribed line as well, and against the range of hands the open raiser and re-raiser have your equity is not that great.

I don't think capping pre-flop is wrong, but I think not capping is better. I do think your line is too agressive as a general approach though. The only time hero can really take control of this pot is on the turn.

He played it fairly well. Tossing in that extra 1SB pre-flop certainly did not cost him the pot. Thinking it did is certainly the wrong way to analyze the hand.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

If you folded to a flop bet vs two MP/LP raises with just 1 over card, you would probably be folding to much because a lot of times the turn is going check/check and who ever bets the river first usually takes it or its high carding for the pot. That is why 88 calls the flop.

88 plays very differently vs 3 preflop raisers. You almost always a made over pair and 88 folds the flop or the turn if its bet on both streets.

Given the range of a MP open raisers and LP re-raiser I think TT has a lot of equity. Change it to an EP openraiser and MP reraiser I think TT has a lot less equity. The position of the raisers is important and should be weighed into the hand strengths.

And just a bet and call from the other players in the hand have yet to convince me TT isn't good.

I agree its an agressive line, but once they SB calls, there is no way to protect your hand from over cards post flop. As they will always be getting correct odds to draw to their 6 outs. The only thing you can do is to try convince them they are dominated and should fold even though they have the correct odds to call. Just calling preflop won't accomplish this.

Later,
MarkV.

[me454555]

I've never played 15/30 and I mostly play 3/6 so keep that in mind when evaluating my advice.

I toss this pf b/c w/a bettor and a raiser there is a good chance your even money at best. Worst case scenerio, you're against some sort of overpair or 3 overcards between the 2 aggressors, this puts you in a very bad situation.

Flop: What was your thinking on the flop? Why are you calling here? Do you believe your ahead or behind? This is where I'd try to show some sort of aggression like betting out or check raising or just tossing it b/c I'm probobly behind. I'd at least like to figure out where I am in the hand if I plan on continueing to the turn or river.

Turn: What would you do if MP2 bet? Were you just going to fold or would you call down to the river?

River: Only way I could see playing it.