Standard SSH "Wait until the turn," or was I lazy?

[MisterKing]

I think I took the right line on the turn and river here, but am less sure about my flop action. I specifically recall advice from SSH about "waiting until the turn" to jack the pot up in some cases, particularly when many cards can ruin your holding. My top pair of 8's with no kicker seemed to be a prime candidate for this play, and the board looked to be of no help to my opponent's most likely holdings.

Do you bet this flop? And if so, what's your action on the turn?

FWIW, Villian is rated LP-P on BisonBison's auto-rate, with 300 hands logged.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls.

River: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[Trix]

Why do you want to risk a free card on this board ?

Whats with the openlimping in MP?

[Bob T.]

Preflop. I would open raise this hand in MP.
In fact, if it is folded to me in MP, I would never open limp.

Flop. Why not bet, the pot is small, but you don't want to give any free cards, and you don't mind winning the pot right now.

Turn. It's headsup with a passive postflop player, who is betting and isn't likely to fold at this point, and you have second pair, mediocre kicker. I would call the turn bet, and bet out on the river, and fold to a raise. I think the turn checkraise was a little bit ambitious for the limited values that you have.

River. You are going to call one bet, so out of position, betting is probably correct.

[StellarWind]

There are only 4 SB in the pot. That should eliminate any thought of waiting until the turn. This is a very easy flop bet.

[TommyO]

I don't understand why you would want to raise preflop with this hand. I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't see how it's +EV. Isn't this the kind of hand that wants a multi-way pot? Only those people with better hands are going to call or re-raise. And what do you do the 80% of the time that the flop has a painted card and you have 9 high. Feel free to call me an idiot if it makes you feel better /images/graemlins/wink.gif Thanks.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop. I would open raise this hand in MP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming typical 2/4 opponents this is an easy fold first-in at Button+3. You have minimal steal equity. Why would you want to play 98s 3-handed for two bets?

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
There are only 4 SB in the pot. That should eliminate any thought of waiting until the turn. This is a very easy flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking when I posted this... not betting the flop bothered me. I guess its worth mentioning that the principle I was trying to use to rationalize my action ("wait til the turn") really only applies in more multiway hands where the pot is larger and nobody will fold no matter what the price. This is hardly such a situation.

I am intrigued by the criticism of my opening limp. I don't do this alot, and did it precisely zero percent of the time in 5-max, but I do make this play frequently with middle suited connectors and smaller suited aces. In the more passive 2/4 games (and this hand was at a table that was more passive than most), a raise in MP often gets you heads up, out of position, against a far superior hand. Not the kind of place I'd like to be with 98s. Open limping often gets several other MP and LP players to limp with you, building the pot for your draw and bringing "customers" in to pay you off when you do hit it. Of course that's the last thing I'd want when holding something like AKo, but with 98s its a different story.

And on the turn, agaisnt a LP-P, I do a lot of checkraising. They give up a high % of the time, even when they're ahead... I'm sticking with this play unless someone can work out a reason why it is -EV.

[jedi]

The flop action should be a bet. SSH talks about when to RAISE, not when to bet. If you check here, it could lead to a free card for everyone which would be disastrous. If someone bet in front of you, then you have to make the decision to raise or call.

That having been said, there's now an overcard up against you on the turn. Your pot equity has dramatically decreased if someone in fact has that ten. If the turn was a safe card, I would have raised, as your pot equity shoots up positively. In this case, I probably call down.

Reread the two-overpair hands section of SSH. I'm still rereading it over and over again.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
That having been said, there's now an overcard up against you on the turn. Your pot equity has dramatically decreased if someone in fact has that ten. If the turn was a safe card, I would have raised, as your pot equity shoots up positively. In this case, I probably call down.

[/ QUOTE ]
He is heads up with a player who bet the flop. I don't like the ten, but it isn't a big deal. Some sort of offensive action is long overdue. He should have bet the flop, he should have raised the flop, and now he should be betting the turn. Each passive action is another error.

I don't like the turn checkraise because your passive opponent may only bet with a better hand.

[runa]

I think there's a distinct difference between the position in your hand here and the SSH example that affects this play significantly. You aren't in late position so you have no idea how the action will unfold behind you, whereas if it is bet in front of you and called in several places you might then make a decision to wait until the turn instead of raising it on the flop where it will just bloat the pot. You also definitely do not want anyone getting a free ride here since your holding is so tenuous, so if you are in late position you can bet if checked to, whereas here you're stuck.

The turn CR is ok, but I think CR the turn can tie players on to pots rather than winning it immediately. It has a psychological effect on some players in that way. With passive players who only bet stronger than marginal holdings you will be called down by better hands or raised by something stronger. If you lose every time you are called, you have to win 50% of the time to break even on this play, which seems like a fairly high frequency.

[slogger]

Nice avatar (ND grad?).

This is not a "wait until the turn" situation. The wait until the turn concept applies to a situation (a large pot - usually a raised pot) where someone bets into you on the flop and a flop raise would not prevent your opponents from correctly drawing against you with odds (also factored in is the concern that there are a lot of turn cards that could significantly reduce your pot equity - i.e., you are vulnerable). The idea is to wait until your pot equity is significantly higher (which would be the case if a safe turn card hit) before raising (both for value and reduce your opponents' drawing odds. [Someone please correct me if I have misstated any of this - I don't have my copy of SSH in front of me).]

You have top pair, weak kicker in a 4-way unraised pot and it's checked to you. You must bet here. You almost certainly have the best hand and you do not want to give free cards to your opponents who could have any number of overcard/draw combinations (remember, 2 of your 3 opponents were in the blinds). It would be a disaster if this flop gets checked behind and an overcard hits the turn.

If one of the blinds had bet the flop, then it might be a slightly closer decision, but I still think a flop raise would be correct - you'd like to shut MP3 (the player who most likely has overcards) out of this pot, and raise would deny him the proper odds to draw to a hand like JT, QT, KJ, etc.

[Bob T.]

Assuming typical 2/4 opponents this is an easy fold first-in at Button+3. You have minimal steal equity. Why would you want to play 98s 3-handed for two bets?

I guess I aggree, if I don't have steal equity, why would I want to play at all. I think if you open limp in MP, then you are just asking for someone else to raise, so you likely play the hand threehanded for two bets anyway. I think limping here is a poor third choice. I would probably raise, and if I didn't want to raise, then I would fold. But, if I am going to play, then I am going to raise.

[Bob T.]

I agree, that this is an implied odds hand, but you are already in MP, and noone has played. If you are going to play, you may as well give yourself the best chance of winning in what will likely be a shorthanded pot. I think that you accomplish this by open raising. In a tight game, I might go this low. In a very loose game, I probably wouldn't. This gets back to game, and seat selection. I don't like playing with the looser players to my left, so in most cases, if I am sitting in the game, I probably have tighter players to my left, and they aren't coming in for a raise all that often. When they do, then I need to play poker.

On a meta-poker level, this kind of raise makes it a lot more difficult for my opponents to put me on a hand when I do raise, so they are more likely to make mistakes in the future, when I have a big hand.

[bernie]

The pot is small enough, bet the flop. Any overcards you get out is beneficial.

Waiting for the turn is for bigger pots. Usually with more players. It's used when a single bet compared to the pot isn't really doing much.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If one of the blinds had bet the flop, then it might be a slightly closer decision, but I still think a flop raise would be correct -

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be an easy flop raise. Otherwise, your call gives 2 overcards odds to call behind you as you mentioned. There is no 'close' in the decision. It's a clear raise if you're seeing the turn.

b