A losing play?

[Saborion]

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: 12.25 BB, between BB, MP1 and Hero.</font>

[Brash620]

You should have value bet the river. Other than that everything looks good.

[sthief09]

it looks good to me. river bet is close. on one hand, you have the first guy beat. on the other. your have a 7 kicker against a guy who probably has an A. he bet into 3 people twice. I think taking your free showdown is fine.

[chief444]

I like it. I'd be a little concerned with the button on the turn raise. His pf raise and flop call looks somewhat suspicious. But I still like the turn raise. And I also check the river unimproved, although it's probably close.

[Fat Nicky]

I don't like the pre-flop limp. I like to be pretty sure of 4 or 5 way action and no raise before I limp here.

I like raising better than calling the flop because it could get you a cheap showdown if they check to you on the turn. Calling here just makes the hand more difficult to play.

I don't like the turn raise, you're not getting both players to fold, you are likely behind to a stronger A, there is the possibility of getting 3-bet, and you lose or gain the same if you just call down to the river.

River check is fine.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the pre-flop limp. I like to be pretty sure of 4 or 5 way action and no raise before I limp here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't that mostly the case on these loose and passive tables.

[ QUOTE ]
I like raising better than calling the flop because it could get you a cheap showdown if they check to you on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting checking behind on the turn if they check to you? Whatever happened to protecting your hand in a big pot?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the turn raise, you're not getting both players to fold, you are likely behind to a stronger A, there is the possibility of getting 3-bet, and you lose or gain the same if you just call down to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't lose the same since you may let the PFR in cheaply and he may outdraw you. The pot is big, you may have the best hand, shouldn't you try to protect it?

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't that mostly the case on these loose and passive tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't specify that was the texture of the table. Even so, I like to be 95% sure of no raise before limping after only 1 limper.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting checking behind on the turn if they check to you? Whatever happened to protecting your hand in a big pot?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if you raise the flop, i consider checking behind on the turn. I am suggesting this taking into consideration that you're likely behind at this point. You also don't do much to protect your hand if in fact you are ahead, any one with a flush draw is not folding, and anyone else is drawing thin to your TP.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't lose the same since you may let the PFR in cheaply and he may outdraw you. The pot is big, you may have the best hand, shouldn't you try to protect it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You try and protect it when it's likely you have the best hand. Here, I believe there is a chance you do have the best hand, but it's unlikely, IMO. Now, I'm not saying to fold the hand, I just like to see cheap showdown with weak Aces when there is a PFR.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't that mostly the case on these loose and passive tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't specify that was the texture of the table. Even so, I like to be 95% sure of no raise before limping after only 1 limper.

[/ QUOTE ]
As I said, that's mostly the case on these tables, and since I didn't specify anything, you could assume that it is a normal 2/4 table. That said, maybe you don't play at Party 2/4 so I should've included it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting checking behind on the turn if they check to you? Whatever happened to protecting your hand in a big pot?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if you raise the flop, i consider checking behind on the turn. I am suggesting this taking into consideration that you're likely behind at this point. You also don't do much to protect your hand if in fact you are ahead, any one with a flush draw is not folding, and anyone else is drawing thin to your TP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't you think it's better to bet the turn and check behind on the river since that cost as much as checking the turn and call the river, with the added benefit that you charge them to see the next card?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't lose the same since you may let the PFR in cheaply and he may outdraw you. The pot is big, you may have the best hand, shouldn't you try to protect it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You try and protect it when it's likely you have the best hand. Here, I believe there is a chance you do have the best hand, but it's unlikely, IMO. Now, I'm not saying to fold the hand, I just like to see cheap showdown with weak Aces when there is a PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]
If it's that unlikely that we have the best hand, aren't we better of folding? I mean, if the odds are good enough for us to continue, shouldn't we toss in another bet and try to protect our hand the times it is best?

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]

Don't you think it's better to bet the turn and check behind on the river since that cost as much as checking the turn and call the river, with the added benefit that you charge them to see the next card?



[/ QUOTE ]

This is a viable option, if you're capable of folding to a check/raise.

[ QUOTE ]
If it's that unlikely that we have the best hand, aren't we better of folding? I mean, if the odds are good enough for us to continue, shouldn't we toss in another bet and try to protect our hand the times it is best?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no clear cut way of determining whether you are ahead or behind here. That said, I think you need to do your best to get to a cheap showdown which is best done by raising the flop rather than the turn.

I hope I am not rambling, and I dont' want to come off as my way is the right way, I am just stating my views as to why I would play the hand the way I described, which could in fact, be the worst way /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MVicuna]

Hi,

You'll need a very loose passive table to limp with A7s after only 1 limper. You can probably get away with it, but I tend to run much better when I fold Axs in MP after 1 limper. I run even better when I raise with Axs in LP vs 1 limper. YMMV.

If its a typical 2/4 table his raise is going to mean your dominated normally. getting 1:7 on your money is ok, but by no means where you want to be due to the likely domination.

What is BB betting? KQ? 89? Axs? Hopeless bluff? Calling is right here with a backdoor flush and the PFR behind you.

The turn raise is iffy, Only the Button is going to fold. So your raise doesn't really protect your hand as He's folding roughly 2-6 outs. Or he pops you with his slowplayed set. That'll be fun!

The river bet has very little value is the one thing I agree with though. There are only three Ax hands your beating and all other hands your beating probably fold to a river bet.

Weak two pair are still going to call hoping to catch a bluff. I know I would given this hand. Limping in MP with Axs after 1 limper and then raising the turn with TPWK. These are moves that will work well at 2/4 where nobody is paying attention, but at tougher tables you'll not be able to do this.

This also an example as why AT/AJ is a must raise situation after limpers, a lot of people get a little to complacent thinking they can sneak into pots with Axs even without enough limpers ahead of them.

Later,
MarkV.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a viable option, if you're capable of folding to a check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given the board, I'd fold to a check-raise. Especially since me raising the turn instead of the fold is so much more powerful, meaning the check-raiser must have a better hand than normal. Or if raised by the PFR.

[ QUOTE ]
There is no clear cut way of determining whether you are ahead or behind here. That said, I think you need to do your best to get to a cheap showdown which is best done by raising the flop rather than the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a pot that is becomming big, if it's unclear that you're ahead of behind, I think the best way to play is to protect your hand. I mean, I got to a fairly cheap showdown as well. Not betting the turn if checked to in this spot is terrible in my opinion.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll need a very loose passive table to limp with A7s after only 1 limper.

[/ QUOTE ]
90 % of the 2/4 tables are very loose and passive.

[ QUOTE ]
The turn raise is iffy, Only the Button is going to fold. So your raise doesn't really protect your hand as He's folding roughly 2-6 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd love to see him fold a 4-outer on the turn, hence the raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Or he pops you with his slowplayed set. That'll be fun!

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting that I simply call down? That will cost me 2 BB. If I raise and can get the button to fold a hand with which he would be correct to call if I only had called, then I'm better of investing those 2 BB at the turn and go for a free showdown. If he 3-bet, so what? Easy fold. Cost me 2 BB, the same as it would've cost me to call down but without the possible fold by the button. That's not entierly true though, since if the button 3-bet me on the turn, he sure would've raised if I had only called, meaning I would have to fold anyway.

[Saborion]

BB had Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif for flopped open-ender.
MP1 had J /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for flopped middle + gutshot.
My hand held up.

I limp with this hand in EP/MP after one limper all the time. The tables are loose and passive enough for that in my opinion. A few of you complained about this, so either you are too tight or I am too loose, and I doubt the latter to be the case.

The flop is a call, given that I have top pair + a backdoor flush draw in a big pot. Disadvantage is having the PFR behind me, and the board being scary.

Turn brought a safe card. The PFR didn't raise the flop so he either has a strong hand, or KK/QQ or a lower PP. MP1 appears to not have a powerhouse either since he's only calling. There's a posssibility of me having the best hand here, so I'll raise and try to drive the PFR out. If the best hand I'm up against is a better top pair, meaning it'll still cost me the same as calling down, but without having the chance to get rid of the PFR.

River I decided to check since there was about 50/50 if I was up a better top pair. I'm not sure, but I believe that most players does not bet A2 into the PFR on a board like that. Am I wrong?

Looking at the results and the way the hand went down, I'm sure a river bet is correct if MP1 calls, since we're 50/50 to be up against a better top pair, and MP1 will provide an overlay. Right?

[StellarWind]

Preflop is OK at most 2/4 tables. Remember how loose/passive you say Party 2/4 is as you read the following.

You have a weak made hand with very little drawing potential. This is a clear raise-or-fold situation on the flop. If this hand is worth playing, it's worth protecting.

The problem is this hand is not worth protecting. Fold the flop. Versus the PFR you are behind AA, JJ, TT, KQ, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9, and A8. You are ahead of KK, QQ, 99, 88, KJ, and QJ. BB is betting through you and usually has an ace or better. MP1 could also have a better ace. You aren't ahead here very often. What do you plan to do when the PFR auto-raises the flop and they start to play ping-pong with you as the ball?

Your opponents also have much the better of the outs situation. When you have the best hand the PFR usually has 6-9 outs and your other opponents probably have plenty more. Plus your kicker could die at any second and chop with BB and/or MP1. Even when you are ahead you probably average only 50% pot equity.

When you are behind you frequently are drawing to the backdoor flush only (AA, JJ, TT, KQ, AJ, AT). Even against AK/AQ your three outs to pair your kicker are severely tainted by a 13-out redraw.

There is no doubt that you can win this pot sometimes by toughing it out. But your pot equity is too small to justify the necessary investment.

[sthief09]

I think folding the flop is waaaaaaay weak tight. fearing an A being out there is like fearing trips on a paired board. there are only 2 left. plenty often you have the best hand and it's 1 SB to continue. I don't see how this is a raise or fold situation. why not call and let the button tell you if he has a hand? if he raises the field you can fold on the turn. if he just calls, proceed how he did. there's no way folding is right on this flop for this cheap

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding the flop is waaaaaaay weak tight. fearing an A being out there is like fearing trips on a paired board. there are only 2 left. plenty often you have the best hand and it's 1 SB to continue. I don't see how this is a raise or fold situation. why not call and let the button tell you if he has a hand? if he raises the field you can fold on the turn. if he just calls, proceed how he did. there's no way folding is right on this flop for this cheap

[/ QUOTE ]
So if Button raises with a worse hand as he often will your plan is to call and then abandon your 1 BB when you don't improve on the turn? What if you get 3-bet? And if Button smooth calls with a big hand you'll bet/raise the turn in front of him? Or maybe BB just bets the best hand three times while you call him down (or possibly make it worse by raising the turn). The truth is you won't know when you should fold.

Your trips comparison is terrible. This is an ace we are talking about. We have a PFR and a blind who is leading into three people on an ace-high board. Plus we are behind many common hands without an ace.

What range of hands do you put unknown 2/4 BB on? How likely is he to be betting a worse hand?

Unknown PFR is a favorite to have a better hand than yours. Aggregate PFR% for Party 2/4 is under 6%.

Given the nature of the board I assume that MP1's call shows something that at least has outs against you and he could easily have a slightly better ace. Overall if you have the best hand 20% of the time that would be fortunate.

But your problems just begin with the flop. Let's assume you have the best hand. Suppose PFR has KK, BB has QJ (middle+gutshot) and MP1 has a worse ace. PokerStove gives you 43% equity. Or BB A2, MP1 KT, and PFR 99 = 38%. Not fair to give anyone an ace? How about PFR KK, BB KJ, MP1 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif=57%?

There is just no way you can make money playing this.

[djoyce003]

I like it. BB could be leading a straight draw or something but you could also be behind to a better ace. Your raise scared him off however, so he might have a weak ace like you. I like the free showdown. You are only going to get called by hands that beat you so a value bet is real thin here. Maybe only worth a bet because of the other caller.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
But your problems just begin with the flop. Let's assume you have the best hand. Suppose PFR has KK, BB has QJ (middle+gutshot) and MP1 has a worse ace. PokerStove gives you 43% equity. Or BB A2, MP1 KT, and PFR 99 = 38%. Not fair to give anyone an ace? How about PFR KK, BB KJ, MP1 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif=57%?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hums. If we have that kind of equity we're very wrong to fold, aren't we?

Say the PFR had KsKc, and the rest of the players had what they had. My equity in that spot is 59 %. Not too shabby.
Now let's change MP1's hand to As9s instead, meaning I'm outkicked. Now my equity is 25.7 %. Still wrong to fold.

[Kaz The Original]

Odd, the river check was really all I liked.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Hums. If we have that kind of equity we're very wrong to fold, aren't we?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, if you *knew* you were ahead it would be wrong to fold. But most of the time at least one opponent has a better hand. BB is probably even money to have a better hand for this aggressive flop bet, Button is probably a favorite based on a listing of possible PFRs, and MP1 is maybe 10%. Overall you might be ahead 20% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Say the PFR had KsKc, and the rest of the players had what they had. My equity in that spot is 59 %. Not too shabby.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fortunate that your opponents are all holding each other's outs. This is practically your best case scenario and you still lose over 40% of the time. But wait, there's more. A different button might have raised the flop with KK for a free card (6 outs) and to see where he's at and all the usual aggro excuses. Now the aggressive BB (he bet this flop) counts 1-2-3 callers and 3-bets his OESD. So sorry, you probably just folded the best hand. Unless of course you are willing to be trapped in a war zone. Another example of how hard it is to play this hand correctly.

[ QUOTE ]
Now let's change MP1's hand to As9s instead, meaning I'm outkicked. Now my equity is 25.7 %. Still wrong to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unclear. You paid 2.5 BB to win a final pot with 12 BB. You can make a small profit by playing but only if you never get outplayed into folding a chopping hand or paying extra when someone improves. You almost never collect extra money because you are primarily playing for half the pot.

Now it's my turn. Most of the time you are in serious trouble instead of being ahead. Let's give the PFR some good hands and make the other hands the same as they were.

AK/AQ: 14%
JJ/TT: 5%
AJ: 4%
AT: 5%
KQ: 7%

Summary:

1. You are usually behind and drawing thin.

2. When you are ahead it isn't easy to stay ahead.

3. Your bad position and lack of reads ensure that the hand will be very hard to play and you will make lots of expensive mistakes (Sklansky sense).

[MVicuna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You'll need a very loose passive table to limp with A7s after only 1 limper.

[/ QUOTE ]
90 % of the 2/4 tables are very loose and passive.

[/ QUOTE ] Why start bad habits? As I mentioned before, my win rate went up and varience went down once I stopped trying to sneak in with this hand at 2/4 and at 3/6 its just pure chip spewing because you don't get a favorable flop often enough to continue on after the LP raise of your limp. You also have to take into account whose behind you and the likely hood of a raise, not just the passivity of the table in general.

[ QUOTE ]
If he 3-bet, so what? Easy fold. Cost me 2 BB, the same as it would've cost me to call down but without the possible fold by the button. That's not entierly true though, since if the button 3-bet me on the turn, he sure would've raised if I had only called, meaning I would have to fold anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't address what happens after your raise. if the flop agressor re-raises? Do you call? Do you fold? reraise?

Do you call/raise/fold if someone bets the river After your turn agression?

Your raise can make hopeless hands fold which you'd love to keep keep betting/calling fold. It would have been tragic if you'd raised and everyone folded when you could have collected 1 more river bet from a hand like KK/QQ who was hoping to catch that gutshot and then decides to call, or a hand that was semi-bluffing catches a pair and bets anyways to try and steal the pot.

You want a showdown because if your behind you probably have 5 outs to improve if you can get to the river, folding the turn is probably a mistake so reopening the betting could just lead to a bad decision in either folding a hand that should continue or putting more money into a pot with a hand thats drawing dead.

So yes, I'm advocating calling down in a 4 way pot. TPWK doesn't hold up enough that you want to put more then 2BB into this pot, but it is good/improves enough that risking 2BB to see a showdown is right.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Why start bad habits?

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the bad habit is adopting fixed standards of preflop play instead of adjusting to fully exploit your opponents' weaknesses.

[MVicuna]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why start bad habits?

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the bad habit is adopting fixed standards of preflop play instead of adjusting to fully exploit your opponents' weaknesses.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question put to us was framed as a general strategy question. We were given no stats/reads on each opponent, no read on what hands MP1 open limps with, not told how often button raises or how loose the Blinds are. All of these factors are just as important as what 2 cards you hold. It shifts the values of some marginal hands greatly. A7-s is one of those hands it can become a fold/call/raise based on all the factors.

So how can we give good advice on how to play A7s? We can't, we can only give general advice. Generally A7s isn't a good limp with only 1 MP limper.

In the future save your criticism for people who post vague HH.

MarkV.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
In the future save your criticism for people who post vague HH.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reread your own post. You told him he needed a loose/passive table to play A7s in this situation. He responded that 90% of 2/4 tables qualify. You told him not to start bad habits and went on to point out that the play is bad at 3/6.

I don't know what you meant to say. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. But the implication of your words is that it is a "bad habit" to make this play against soft 2/4 tables because it won't work against the more aggressive players at higher limits.

I object to that concept. The play is either good here and now or it isn't. He can always do something different next time or after he moves up to 3/6 or whatever.

Whether this table or most 2/4 tables qualify is another matter. I would need a positive reason to make this call. A generic Party 2/4 table doesn't do it for me.

[bisonbison]

In the future save your criticism for people who post vague HH.

Meeeeow.

[W. Deranged]

I have to admit I really don't like this play. The button is raising with two people already having entered the pot, meaning it is extremely unlikely that he is on a steal. To me, that means that if he has an Ace of any kind, you are beaten. With the first player firing at the pot into a pre-flop raiser, he could very well have something that beats a good ace, or could have a good draw, as was this case. So, you are very likely to be up against hands that are beating you from both sides, or maybe a better hand and a better draw.

By setting up this play, you are committing to playing for at least 2.5 big bets. For every time that you run into exactly the situation you are in (pre-flop raiser without an A; early position player on a missed draw), I think you will run into 5 situations where you are beaten.

I think you should either raise the flop to figure out where you are cheaply (fully prepared to fold on the turn if the flop is three-bet or someone raise/check-raises the turn), or fold. The earlier analysis that fold is best is probably right.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
By setting up this play, you are committing to playing for at least 2.5 big bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
No I'm not. That's the reason I didn't raise the flop. By only calling I get to see what the PFR does, and that will give me important information.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should either raise the flop to figure out where you are cheaply (fully prepared to fold on the turn if the flop is three-bet or someone raise/check-raises the turn), or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
But given the pot size and the small bet size on the flop the PFR will often call two cold with quite a few hands on the flop, meaning I don't gain all that much information. If he folds, great. If he calls two cold, then what? He's just as likely to have AK as he is to have a big hand such as KQ, AA, JJ or TT (not including Bayes theorem), setting everyone up for a raise on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
The earlier analysis that fold is best is probably right.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you knew for sure that you're beat and that you don't have the outs to call, sure. I don't think that's true in this case though. A flop raise won't give you that information since anyone with a hand like KQ will be all happy and love the possible check-raise/raise opportunity they now have on the turn and so on.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
As I mentioned before, my win rate went up and varience went down once I stopped trying to sneak in with this hand at 2/4 and at 3/6 its just pure chip spewing because y]

[/ QUOTE ]
There's a big difference between 2/4 and 3/6 imo.

[ QUOTE ]
because you don't get a favorable flop often enough to continue on after the LP raise of your limp. You also have to take into account whose behind you and the likely hood of a raise, not just the passivity of the table in general.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I know someone is likely to raise behind me, I don't limp with it. Easy decision. If I don't have that information, I'll limp with any day and twice on Sundays, given how these tables play.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't address what happens after your raise. if the flop agressor re-raises? Do you call? Do you fold? reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's implied. I DID say "If he 3-bet, so what? Easy fold. Cost me 2 BB, the same as it would've cost me to call down but without the possible fold by the button." meaning I'm folding to a 3-bet on the turn. Not all that hard to understand that I'm beat if the PFR simply calls the flop then all of the sudden 3-bet the turn. That is regardless of how the other players respond to the 3-bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you call/raise/fold if someone bets the river After your turn agression?

[/ QUOTE ]
This naturally depends on the river card, where the bet is coming from and how many players, if any, have called the bet.


[ QUOTE ]
Your raise can make hopeless hands fold which you'd love to keep keep betting/calling fold. It would have been tragic if you'd raised and everyone folded when you could have collected 1 more river bet from a hand like KK/QQ who was hoping to catch that gutshot and then decides to call, or a hand that was semi-bluffing catches a pair and bets anyways to try and steal the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. I raised exactly because I wanted a hand like KK/QQ to fold. If I hadn't raised, he would have enough odds to call that turn bet. This is especially true for the average loose player at 2/4 who doesn't necessarily fold KK even to my raise. And, I really don't mind everyone folding to my turn raise in a pot of that size with a board looking like that.

[ QUOTE ]
You want a showdown because if your behind you probably have 5 outs to improve if you can get to the river,

[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm behind I most likely have 2 outs at best, drawing dead on occasionally.

[ QUOTE ]
folding the turn is probably a mistake so reopening the betting could just lead to a bad decision in either folding a hand that should continue or putting more money into a pot with a hand thats drawing dead.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since you say "reopening" and "lead to a bad decision" like that, I take it you think I would call a 3-bet? Well, one benefit of the slow-played turn raise is that if when I'm 3-bet, I don't have to call. I don't expect to even have 2 outs most of the time. That turn raise will:
1: Possibly get the PFR to fold a hand with which he may have been correct to call one bet with and thus I'm increasing my winning chances.
2: Will often give me a free showdown if the best hand I'm up against is top pair that has me out-kicked, meaning it will cost me the same as me simply calling down but without the possibility of folding out the PFR.
3: Make it easy for me to fold to a 3-bet since I'm then not expecting to even have 2 outs most of the time. Once again this cost me 2 bets, the same as simpy calling down.

Granted, the BB can have a hand like QJ or so, but unless he's overaggro, he will often respect my slow-played turn raise. A powerful raise that is.

I've heard mixed opinions about the preflop, the flop, the turn and the river on this hand. A good hand clearly given the discussion. I'm still not convinced that I played it poorly preflop and on the turn. I'm more curious about calling the flop and betting the river.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Do I wait till he posts a hand where he limps in MP/LP with Axs at a 3/6 table before I tell him its a losing play? Or should I include it now? In my opinion is it also a losing play in this particular position with only 1 limper. I feeel this is because A7s has a range of opponents it plays best against, that number is 1-2 or 5+. With only 4 people left behind you to enter the pot they'd need to all average 50% VPIP in order for you to get the required amount for it to be profitable.

When I say passive I mean 1%-2% PFR which is not the norm at the 2/4 tables I've played at. Do you mean 3%-5% for passive, I consider that about normal and wouldn't be shocked if I was raised if I limped behind 1 other player in MP.

So, For me to agree with a call here. I'd like a table where the 4 people behind me had a VPIP of at least 40% and a PFR% of 3 or less. That would normally get me a cheap flop with 5 players. Then I would consider limping in MP with A7s. This doesn't describe your typical 2/4 table at party.

Am I being more clear?

Thanks,
MarkV.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I made a post addressing the preflop part of this hand to StellarWind. We can agree to disagree as each player's experiences can be vastly different.

So a flop raise what does that do.


Flop: (8.50 SB) T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A /images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, Button....

Say Button has QQ/KK. He has to call 1BB and we all know BB/MP1 are calling so 7BB that will now be in the pot. He's very sure someone has an ace, but he has a gutshot given how badly people play at 2/4 he has implied odds. I think most people call here for 1BB some fold. YMMV.

Everyone else calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls, MP1 Calls.

This is typically what happens with a flop raise.

River: (12.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, 3 folds.

Given your flop raise into the PFR everyone is usually convinced you have an ace, so only better hands are calling.

Raising the flop doesn't protect your hand and builds the same pot. Clearly raising the turn is best when you have the best hand as it protects you from the Button the times he's drawing to the gutshot yet changes the final pot size not at all.

My passive line changes it this way.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A /images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB bets, MP1 bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)

The river now plays very different.

Checked to us and we Bet the winning hand.

3 folds = -1BB -8%
1 Call = 0BB 0%
2 Call = 1BB 8%
3 Call = +2BB +12%

I rarely don't get called in at least 1 spot just to keep me honest given the size of the pot.

BB/MP1 bets a worse hand and we call.

Final pot 12.25BB
1 over call = +1BB. +8%
2 over call = +2BB. +12%

In your line this never happens. I earn roughly what I lose. The over calls aren't common, but they do happen helping pad our profit.

Obviously overcalling loses the same as if we folded to a turn 3 bet.

My line I never fold as a fold would be a disaster due to the size of the pot and the likelyhood of me improving if I am behind or just being flat out ahead.

Your line has places in it where you get 3 bet and fold incorrectly. This is a disaster.

Me losing an extra 9% of the time where I don't protect my hand from the buttons gutshot is more then offset by the 11% of the times I don't fold and improve to the winning hand.

There are subtleties where a turn raise may force out a better hand, but given the size of the pot and the general CS nature of 2/4 this is rarely the case as on.

Or a flop raise may force out backdoor flush draws, but this is also rarely the case as the preflop raiser is the only person our raise confronts with a CC and if he has a backdoor flush draw he'll probably also have a pair and a gutshot draw to go with it and won't fold and may even 3 bet the flop for the free card with his 8+ outs.

Later,
MarkV.

[colgin]

For those of you who may have missed it yesterday I thought that this was an interesting thread, particularly Stellar Wind's thoughtful analysis of the flop play.

The thread was pretty buried so I bumped it for those who might be interested.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

For some reason I missed your post.

These are some of the reasons my winrate went up and my varience went down when I stopped limping A[baby]s after only 1 limper in EP/MP or raising to 'protect' my hand when I only have a chance drive out the *1* player who is more likely to 3 bet me rather then fold.

Thanks,
MarkV.