Interesting question for football fans

[Usul]

Myself, my brother and several of my friends were discussing some very interesting questions regarding NFL players the other night during the Baltimore/NE game (BTW, FU Matt Stover), and seeing as it generated some very heated, very interesting debate I thought I would pose these questions to the minds at OOT.

There are three questions total, but the one that started the debate is the first one, which obviously lead to the next two. The questions are as follows:

1) If you could clone one NFL player to play every position on offense, defense and special teams, who would you pick?

2) If you could pick TWO different NFL players to clone and play them at all positions on offense, defense and special teams, who would you pick? (you can use these two players in any combination, i.e if you picked an big strong guy and a small fast guy you could put the big guy at lineman positions and the little guy at skill position in any amount of combinations you so choose)

3) Same question as number two, except these two players have to currently play for the same NFL team.

This debate got so intense that we agreed to put a wager on it and each create Madden teams following the criteria of the third question and play each other in a tournament. The third question generated the most debate, as it proved to be the most interesting. I'm interested to see what other people think for all three questions before I give any of the answers we came up with.

[Michael Davis]

I'd go with Antonio Gates at every position but I think Julius Peppers would be okay too.

Picking two guys, I'd take Antwaan Randle El and Jason Taylor (?). I'd be interested in finding an athletic offensive lineman here instead of Taylor, though.

EDIT: I like Vick instead of Randle El here.

Picking two guys from the same team I think I'd try Ray Lewis and Ed Reed.

These picks sure seem biased based on the games I watched on TV this past week. FWIW, I think Culpepper might fit somewhere here.

-Michael

[bugstud]

1) If you could clone one NFL player to play every position on offense, defense and special teams, who would you pick?

Probably Either Juluis Peppers, Urlacher or Julian Peterson. Gun to my head, it'd be Urlacher.

2) If you could pick TWO different NFL players to clone and play them at all positions on offense, defense and special teams, who would you pick?

I'd Go with Peppers and Vick imo on this one.

3) Same question as number two, except these two players have to currently play for the same NFL team.

This one is tough. I might have to go with Walter Jones and Shaun Alexander here.

[Rick Diesel]

1) If you could clone one NFL player to play every position on offense, defense and special teams, who would you pick?

Julius Peppers

2) If you could pick TWO different NFL players to clone and play them at all positions on offense, defense and special teams, who would you pick? (you can use these two players in any combination, i.e if you picked an big strong guy and a small fast guy you could put the big guy at lineman positions and the little guy at skill position in any amount of combinations you so choose)

Julius Peppers and Michael Vick

3) Same question as number two, except these two players have to currently play for the same NFL team.

Ed Reed and Jonathan Ogden

[thatpfunk]

I'll go against the grain and say Culpepper for the first.

For two players, Vick and Peppers sounds right.

For the same team, Culpepper and Moss (but give him a work ethic /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll go against the grain and say Culpepper for the first.

For two players, Vick and Peppers sounds right.

For the same team, Culpepper and Moss (but give him a work ethic /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]
My answer is real similar to this. I'd have to think it through a little more before finalizing, though. I don't think you could be too wrong putting Donovan F. McNabb in there somewhere either. Vick and Culpepper were the two that came to my head immediately when starting to think of who'd be good in these positions. Other people you'd have to consider would be Urlacher and (I hate to say it) the over-hyped R Lewis.

[elwoodblues]

It would be hard to not pick Culpepper just because of his size and relative swiftness.

No idea about #2

#3, probably Culpepper and Moss, but I could see picking a HUGE guy and a fast guy (kind of like a good wrestling tag team) to balance things out.

[WDC]

1 Duante Culpepper
2 Duante Culpepper and Mike Vick
3 Mike Vick and Crumpler

[NoChance]

1. I would have to go with Vick but the games would be very high scoring because there wouldn't be much defense.

2. I would go with Vick and Peppers. One for offense and one for defense.

3. I was going to choose Ed Reed and Rey Lewis but then I would have no offense. Then I thought about Manning and Freeney but as good as Manning is at running the offense I don't think he is much of an "athlete". I will have to give this one more thought but would choose one offensive player and one defensive player.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

How about taking people like Deion Sanders (in his prime) or good cornerbacks - Champ Bailey or C Woodson, guys like Dante Hall or all around athletes that just didn't fit into any particular position, but are relatively good at just about anything - Kordell Stewart or Randel El.

[Victor]

1. michael vick
2. vick and ladanian
3. vick and dunn

[Lazymeatball]

So is this fantasy clone team playing against other clone teams, or against other NFL teams? Because even the 49'ers could beat any clone team suggested. The game is just too specialized. This point is pretty obvious, but I thought it should be made.

[thatpfunk]

I imagined it as this: You get to clone the player and then raise them to play at the positions you need them for. So if we have 22 Culpeppers, then some will be on diets to get big to play o-line while others will work on quickness etc. to play skill positions.

I think the 2 team combo of vick and peppers (or fill in some other random huge freak of nature athlete) would be able to compete fairly well. Vick could easily play every skill position (and if raised to play it would probably be an All-pro at all of them) and a line backing corp of Peppers would be ruthless. The biggest problem would be interior linemen, but I don't know how big you could hypothetically get Peppers on the correct diet, etc.

All that being said, if you could pick 3 players, you would probably be unstoppable.

[Lazymeatball]

The most specialized positions are QB, O-line, WR, and not to be underestimated, Kicker. QB and Kicker both come from a kind of talent unlike any other position in football. O-line is just a completely different build then most other positions. The only person who could come up with a propper answer to this question is Bill Belichek, whou would break down each position as to it's worth to a team, and evaluate players based upon their abilities at each position.

[Redmen62]

When we debated it, we had the clone teams competing against other clone teams. This makes things a lot more fun, as when you try to explain to someone that a team of Julius Peppers would own a team of Michael Vicks. Badly. Try and play the game out in your head, with Vicks trying to block Peppers in the trenches.

[Redmen62]

[ QUOTE ]

3. I was going to choose Ed Reed and Rey Lewis but then I would have no offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind how much relatively better your offense would be with Lewis/Reed than the defense of someone with Vick/Dunn. Almost all great defensive players played some offense at some point, and/or have elite ball skills like Reed. This is why for question #1, anyone who took Vick (for his athleticism) probably should have taken someone like Champ Bailey.

Summarized: A team of Champ Baileys would stomp a team of Michael Vicks.

[thatpfunk]

You are completely wrong.

Bailey is in no way a better athlete than Vick and the quarterback position is much more difficult than any position on defense. That's why great athletes such as Bailey get moved to defense, overall athletic ability supercededs skill.

I imagine the two are very close as far as speed, agility, etc, but Vick can throw darts, Bailey can not.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
When we debated it, we had the clone teams competing against other clone teams. This makes things a lot more fun, as when you try to explain to someone that a team of Julius Peppers would own a team of Michael Vicks. Badly. Try and play the game out in your head, with Vicks trying to block Peppers in the trenches.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are making the mistake in assuming that conventional NFL offenses would be run with a team of Vicks. There are several random offensive formations using only 3 linemen with the rest of the players split wide, etc. A team of Peppers would not be able to defense it.

However, Vick could not stop Peppers either- Goaline formation down the entire field would work.

[mmbt0ne]

1) If you could clone one NFL player to play every position on offense, defense and special teams, who would you pick?

Daunte Culpepper

2) If you could pick TWO different NFL players to clone and play them at all positions on offense, defense and special teams, who would you pick?

Michael Vick, Julius Peppers

3) Same question as number two, except these two players have to currently play for the same NFL team.

Donovan McNabb, Jevon Kearse

[Redmen62]

[ QUOTE ]
You are completely wrong...

I imagine the two are very close as far as speed, agility, etc, but Vick can throw darts, Bailey can not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you're saying. But I don't think the ability to "throw darts" would be as valuable as the tackling and defensive ability of Bailey. I don't see any way that The Vicks would be able to score more than The Champs, as The Bailey team could run options and sweeps up and down the field on a team of touch football Vicks.

Put another way, Champ Bailey on offense with Mike Vick on D is more of a mismatch than vice versa. Champ could cover the Vick WR's, would win the trench battle and could contain QB Vick's running.

[thatpfunk]

Tackling is pretty easy. If pressed, I really think Vick could learn how to tackle/be physical. Bailey isn't big or exceptionally strong. He wouldn't be able to run over Vick.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are completely wrong...

I imagine the two are very close as far as speed, agility, etc, but Vick can throw darts, Bailey can not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you're saying. But I don't think the ability to "throw darts" would be as valuable as the tackling and defensive ability of Bailey. I don't see any way that The Vicks would be able to score more than The Champs, as The Bailey team could run options and sweeps up and down the field on a team of touch football Vicks.

Put another way, Champ Bailey on offense with Mike Vick on D is more of a mismatch than vice versa. Champ could cover the Vick WR's, would win the trench battle and could contain QB Vick's running.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just so wrong.

1 - Vick is 6'0", 215 lbs. Bailey is 6'0" but only 192.

2 - Vick runs a 4.2 40 - faster than Bailey.

3 - Vick plays QB - the most complicated position in football. I think it's safe to say he could learn to play any other position (not that Bailey couldn't, but he played QB in high school and was moved to DB in college)

[jstnrgrs]

A few years ago, my college roommate and I got into a discussion about who would win in a game on 11 of me vs. 11 of him.

I played offensive line in high school, I weigh about 270, and I am very slow.

He is a crosscountry runner (though he could outrun me at any distance) who weighs about 130.

I ultimatly had to concede that he would win, because while I think I could score every time I had the ball (I'd run it up the middle every time), he could also score every time (by doing anything but running it up the middle). When we reached this point in the conversion, he stated that he would attempt an onsides kick on every kickoff, and I'm sure he would be more sucessful than me (at onsides kicks).

I was reminded of this a few weeks ago when Tennessee atempted 3 onsides kicks against Indy. I think this is a good idea against a team that is likely to score regardless of their field position.

[SuitedSixes]

Terrell Suggs was a badass running back in high school. I think he could play just about anywhere.

[lapoker17]

I assume you were all high when this conversation arose.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you were all high when this conversation arose.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea. I was just thinking how mistitled this thread is...

[Usul]

Ok, first off I've been writing exams, so I'm gonna have to give this one a major BUMP.

Secondly, There is NO WAY Vick runs a 4.20. Actually, I should rephrase that. Vick could run a 4.20 under the following conditions: He is wearing spikes on a world class track outdoors with an illegal tailwind. Then he might run a 4.2. The fact of the matter is that 40 times are complete BS. Both Terrel Owens and Jerry Rice have NEVER run faster than a 4.6.

Anyway, forty times are just a pet peeve of mine because they are so overrated.

Champ Baily would be a better asset to a team than Micheal Vick. Contrary to what some would say, anyone who has played football knows that tackling LOOKS easy, but it is probably the hardest physical skill to teach, and definately the most valuable. The ability to "throw darts" pales in comparison to the ability to hawk balls and make tackles. If I'm not mistaken Champ played some reciever in college and regardless has vastly superior ball skills to Vick.

Anyway, off the top of my head, these are the best three answers as I see them.

1) Julius Peppers, simply because he is the best combination of size, speed and skill that the league has ever seen. I might take Ray Lewis in his prime, but his edge is more mental.

2) Jonathan Ogden, Ed Reed. For a two player team you have to realize that you're playing against a team made the same way. Therefore your best option would be to pick the best big strong guy and the best athletic fast guy (ball skills are essential here). The thing about Ogden is he is so huge (6'9" 340lbs) and dominating as a blocker. You could play three or four Ogdens with thier hands in the dirt on D to keep blockers off your Reeds who would run rampant, picking off every second pass. Ogden also has 1 or 2 career touchdowns as a tight end. It's hard to defend a 6'9" guy in the red zone. The nice thing about Reed is that he hawks balls better than anyone in the league, has the best speed of any real safety in the game and has the toughness to play runningback and linebacker with Ogden eating up the other teams big boys.

The answer to number three is obviously the same as two. With a team like this the passing game becomes irrelevent. Your defense with that many Reeds pass rushing, bumping and playing cover 2 over the top would catch more passes than the receivers. You could stay in a cover two all game long because of Ogden stuffing the run and you could bring a couple Reeds off the corner. On offense, just run off tackle every play with a 3 or 4 tight end set and let Ogden take you to the promised land.

And no, we were not intoxicated in any way when having this conversation.

[IggyWH]

[ QUOTE ]
Terrell Suggs was a badass running back in high school. I think he could play just about anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

LaVar Arrington was just SICK at running back in high school. I don't know what kind of competition Suggs had in high school, but LaVar came out of North Hills High School in Western Pennsylvania. He played in Quad A (highest division) in the WPIAL (Western Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic League) and the WPIAL one of the main high school football hot beds outside Florida, Cali and Texas.

He's still pissed at JoePa that he didn't get a chance to be a RB in college. I have no doubt in my mind he could have been a HOF running back and I'm surprised no one mentioned him.

[Usul]

Good call. I would put LaVar in the top 5 pure atheletes in the game. Ray Lewis also played RB in highschool.

[rgreenm90]

I've noticed a lot of people mention Julius Peppers in these questions. Will someone explain why he is better than Dwight Freeney or any other fast defensive end? Anyway, my answers to these...

1. Julius Peppers
2. Mike Vick and Peppers
3. Ed Reed and Ray Lewis

Other thing--nobody mentioned Tony Gonzalez, either, and he is an amazing athlete.

[Oski]

# 3: Culpepper/Moss

Culpepper has enough size to play the line; FB; TE. Moss at the other positions would be unstoppable. Just one Moss is almost impossible to stop up high. You have 2 MOSS for a jump ball; 2 MOSS for Deep ball; and one more in the mix on every play ... that offense cannot be stopped.

Culpepper as the front 7 and SS on D; Moss as Corners and FS.

Looks good to me.

[hoyaboy1]

Culpepper/Moss would beat Lewis/Reed easily.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
Contrary to what some would say, anyone who has played football knows that tackling LOOKS easy, but it is probably the hardest physical skill to teach, and definately the most valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I really have to disagree. Transitioning from quarterback to DB was incredibly simple. It was in high school, and obviously things are much different, but tackling larger players simply is resorting to sacrificing your body and ankle tackling. Tackling someone of similar stature is no problem. There is no reason to think Vick wouldn't be able to.

[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, There is NO WAY Vick runs a 4.20. Actually, I should rephrase that. Vick could run a 4.20 under the following conditions: He is wearing spikes on a world class track outdoors with an illegal tailwind. Then he might run a 4.2. The fact of the matter is that 40 times are complete BS. Both Terrel Owens and Jerry Rice have NEVER run faster than a 4.6.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with you about 40 times. However, have you ever watched Mike Vick play? When he scrambles he seems to move faser than every player on the field. He is
extremely agile and his burst is unparalled. His feet are easily quick enough to play defensive back. If he put on 15-25lbs he could be a running back in the Tiki Barber mold.

I actually think the Barber's are a very interesting example since they are twins and have the same make up. If you had many Vicks and were able to put them on different workouts to gain size or quickness they would be pro bowlers at QB, RB, DB, and FS. He could make a stellar SS and WR, but probably just below pro-bowl status.

[ QUOTE ]
The ability to "throw darts" pales in comparison to the ability to hawk balls and make tackles. If I'm not mistaken Champ played some reciever in college and regardless has vastly superior ball skills to Vick.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ball hawking, having a "nose" for the ball, etc is much easier to learn than throwing a football. Once again, there is a reason that very good athletes are automatically relegated to DB positions. A quick release, amazing arm strentgh, etc, that Vick possesses is impossible to teach.

[SossMan]

sup bro?

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]


Ball hawking, having a "nose" for the ball, etc is much easier to learn than throwing a football. Once again, there is a reason that very good athletes are automatically relegated to DB positions. A quick release, amazing arm strentgh, etc, that Vick possesses is impossible to teach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its also impossible to teach height. Vick don't have it. That means ... Vick at WR is nothing special and you need somebody to throw the ball to. Moss would get better at DB; Vick never will get taller.

[thatpfunk]

That's why I said Vick would be an excellent reciever (think Hines Ward) but not Pro-Bowl Caliber Elite.

Moss's strides are much to long to play db extremely well. He would make a good safety though.

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why I said Vick would be an excellent reciever (think Hines Ward) but not Pro-Bowl Caliber Elite.

Moss's strides are much to long to play db extremely well. He would make a good safety though.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fundamental problem I have with this is that football is not played in a vacuum (I don't mean literally).

For a receiver like Ward to be effective, he has to have a complement of other threats on the team. Moss' height and jumping ability is a threat all by itself. Running game shot to hell? Its still there, you can throw to Moss. Possession Receiver not getting open? Slot back ineffective? You get the picture.

3 Vicks at WR would have limited impact ... speed, and that's about it.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
The fundamental problem I have with this is that football is not played in a vacuum (I don't mean literally).

For a receiver like Ward to be effective, he has to have a complement of other threats on the team. Moss' height and jumping ability is a threat all by itself. Running game shot to hell? Its still there, you can throw to Moss. Possession Receiver not getting open? Slot back ineffective? You get the picture.

3 Vicks at WR would have limited impact ... speed, and that's about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jerry Rice is 6'2" and was never known as a jumper,etc. or applauded for his height. His is arguably the best football player ever, and easily the best wr. Also look at Harrison now. Size is a great attribute, but not necessary to be an effective wr.

Being undersized a la Chrebet, is a completely different story.

[Michael Davis]

A couple of late observations:

First, Hines Ward and James Farrior deserve consideration for the last question.

Second, Antonio Gates and Dwight Freeney are vastly underrated.

-Michael

[thatpfunk]

How sweet would Bo Jackson be? That guy was a freaking athlete.

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fundamental problem I have with this is that football is not played in a vacuum (I don't mean literally).

For a receiver like Ward to be effective, he has to have a complement of other threats on the team. Moss' height and jumping ability is a threat all by itself. Running game shot to hell? Its still there, you can throw to Moss. Possession Receiver not getting open? Slot back ineffective? You get the picture.

3 Vicks at WR would have limited impact ... speed, and that's about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jerry Rice is 6'2" and was never known as a jumper,etc. or applauded for his height. His is arguably the best football player ever, and easily the best wr. Also look at Harrison now. Size is a great attribute, but not necessary to be an effective wr.

Being undersized a la Chrebet, is a completely different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is in the normal NFL where those players are surrounded by a TEAM which consists of a complement of players, weapons and dimensions ... and you are 100% correct.

In the clone FL you have to be a self-contained weapon. Moss has many more dimensions at WR, in fact, he has what many consider to be an almost unstoppable threat. The high pass, over and away from the DB. He is slowed down by double teams ... Now, what happens when you have 3 more Moss' out on the play? Culpepper certainly will find one of them for the jump.

One of the Vicks will have to get open (and found by the QB) whereas, Culpepper can pick any one of the MOSS that has single coverage and throw immediately.

[Usul]

1) Tackling as a DB in highschool is different from tackling 240 pound running backs in the NFL. There are many players in the NFL that have very poor tackling technique. Ed Reed is not one of them. Dante Culpepper, Randy Moss, Micheal Vick etc. would get embassed on defence.

2) Dante Culpepper would get destroyed on the d-line and o-line. Not only is he undersized by at least 35 pounds, but line play, especially o tackle is 80% technique. If you ever gave Culpepper the ball he would fumble it. He has fumbled on a greater percentage of plays than ANY player in NFL history. He averages one per game over his career.

[thatpfunk]

How often do you see db's making 1 on 1 tackles against someone like Bettis? When it happens, it simply diving at the legs. Most of the time they don't even wrap up. Not a tough skill to learn.

I am sure an athletic person is competent enough to learn to do so. The majority of the time big running backs are not 1 on 1 with db's. You're just wrong on this. And, fwiw, I tackled guys 240lbs who now play for D-1 colleges and I was 170lbs. You know that Kellen Winslow character? Ya...

[Usul]

My point is this:

If Micheal Vick tried to tackle Jamal Lewis in the open field he would get juked or run over more than nine times out of ten. This is how the argument relates to the question posed.

The Vick example aside there are many defensive players in the NFL who can't execute a proper wrap-up tackle. I'm not just talking about DBs either. I'm talking linebackers. Your example of how DBs don't need to learn to tackle because they can "jump" at a guys knees is rediculous. Take any player in the NFL and if they just jump at Priest Holmes' knees, he's just gonna bounce off and score.

While it may be true that you, as a defensive back, had perfect form back in the day and brought Kellen Winslow down with ease, it is not the case of your average athlete. Just ask John Madden about the state of tackling in the NFL and he'll repeat what I just said.

[thatpfunk]

I feel like we're agreeing with each other here.

And my form was definetly not perfect. It's not so much as tackling as getting run over and bringing the other player down... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Usul]

Ah, the age-old speedbump technique... I know it well /images/graemlins/smile.gif