Raising w/ small PP w/ gutshot ok?

[Roadstar]

Loose table, hoping the raise would get me a free card at the turn.

River call ok? or release?

Thx

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

[Peter Harris]

this is by far the worst of the lot. You are drawing at the ignorant end of the straight. an 8 gives all T's a higher straight than yours. the 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif makes a possible flush. you have an underpair.

fold the flop, and don't be so hopeful.

[davelin]

Fold the flop, what do you think you're beating on the river?

[Smasharoo]

I understand why you raised here. You're just learning the benefits of tactical raising in certain situations on flops where you pretty clearly don't have the best hand, but your hand is too good to fold and raising is better than calling. While that it isn't the case here, it indicates that you're trying to learn and better your game. Don't let responses here detract from that.

Your raise has little tactical value here because it's unlikely to clean up many of your outs. You're unlikely to fold an 8 here, which means your two outs to a set really aren't as live as you'd like. You're unlikely to fold a T with an overcard or a backdoor flush draw either, meaning your outs to the low end of a straight aren't as live as youd like either.

Consider this. What card would you like to see that you're confident gives you the best hand? 5h? Nope, puts 3 to a flush and 4 to a straight on the board. 5c? Puts 4 to a striaght on the board. 8h? Puts 4 to a striaght which you have the loewst possible end of on the bard and a flush draw on the board. etc.

The idea behind tactical flop raising is to increase your chances of winning a large pot, which this really isn't at this point with it being 4sb. When you're considering a raise for tactical purposes as opposed to value purposes you need to ask yourself "What will this accomplish that increases my chances of winning."

Almost allways a raise on the flop will somewhat increase your fold equity. That's good. More folds generally mean more chance of you winning. Sometimes a flop raise will buy you a free card on the turn. That can be good, it allows you to draw cheaply. Sometimes a raise on the flop will fold a hand that is slightly better than yours currently. It's obviously good any time you can fold a better hand in a big pot.

Your raise here is unlikely to accomplish any of these things.

It might be helpful if you went over your reasoning for raising here.

[car ramrod]

Good post Smasharoo. I am still new to this forum and I feel this post was well thought out and written. I have found myself looking for places to raise to gain a free card or to fold out some hands. I sometimes feel I do what the original poster did, and I now see its best used in the right situation. Thanks for the good post.

[jskills]

Fold on the flop bet. Though it seems tempting to try to make your straight or a set, but bad odds of those things aside, even if you do, you still might not have the best hand (higher straight or flush).

[Roadstar]

Thanks for the post Smasharoo you are bang on! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Now its clear to me I misapplied one of Sklansky's concepts I've read in the Theory of Poker. I think he used an example where you would raise with a second best hand to drive others out to increase your own chances of winning (even if you're still an underdog) because it could also give you the benefit of a free card.

So clearly, I counted too many outs for myself (6). How do you guys "discount" outs? And when you have a backdoor straight or flush draw (just as an example), how many outs do you really "count"?

Thanks for the help!