Aggression Baby!

[Cardzy]

Both opponents were slightly loose (21% and 29% VP$IP). I probably showed way too much aggression in this hand, but I'm not sure. I bet preflop as the first in, I bet the flop as it was checked to me as last to act and had a backdoor straight draw (lol, yeah, wonderful draw there! not.) Again it was checked to me on the turn, I'm thinking I'm probably going to be trapped here as one of them had to have a K if they called raises preflop, but what can I do? I figure I have to represent a strong hand as I have been the aggressor thus far and I had a crappy gut shot draw. Shrug.

Let me know what you think about how this was played.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

[ThreeAces]

Reel it in! Fairly sure the book play is to call JTs pre-flop from there. Your raise may have caused players behind you to fold, when, w/ JTs, you want PF callers. Nice win here, but your post-flop action is probably -EV w/ such a small pot.

[Cardzy]

Maybe I should have limped, but from all my learning, it is never good to limp as first in and that has stuck with me. Am I wrong in thinking this way? Also I figured I could steal the blinds, but they didn't fold for me. hehe.

[OrianasDaad]

Raising from MP3 is good here, since you really want to limit the field.

Betting the flop is good, since not only do you have your backdoor straight draw, you also have two overcards, improving your draw considerably. Using SSHE for a guide, your zero-gap gutshot is worth 1.5 outs, and your overcards mabye 4 outs (the diamonds put a flush on board, and you could be reverse dominated). 5.5 outs means the pot needs to lay out 7.5 bets for you to call, which it will if both your opponents call you - plus you have a chance to get a free card on the turn, so your implied odds are also good.

The K/images/graemlins/club.gif is the second-worst "good" card you could have gotten (next to the K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif). While it gives you a gutshot, it's an overcard to your hand and the pot is small. Your two opponents with their VPIP could easily have spiked a pair, since they aren't THAT loose, after all. One of your reasons for raising the flop should have been to peel off a free river card if you could. Getting called in this spot almost certainly means you are beat. Take the free card. The pot is small.

[OrianasDaad]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should have limped, but from all my learning, it is never good to limp as first in and that has stuck with me. Am I wrong in thinking this way? Also I figured I could steal the blinds, but they didn't fold for me. hehe.

[/ QUOTE ]

First in from MP3 is a standard raise (for me) with suited broadway cards, since you want a very short-handed pot. The pot at most will be 5-handed from this position, and you are better off with more or less players. You don't want to be in against 4 players, two of which you are out of position on, with JTs.

UTG - mabye limp. MP3 with at least two callers - limp.

[ThreeAces]

[ QUOTE ]
... from all my learning, it is never good to limp as first in and that has stuck with me. Am I wrong in thinking this way? Also I figured I could steal the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]

In a higher limit game, a blind steal attempt from that position might work. At Party-micro? Almost never, IMO. JTs is just not good enough for 2 bets from that position w/o at least 2 callers behind. From that position, in that game, first in, its call and wait for the action that almost invariably comes from behind. Glad he won the small pot here. However, plays like this do not maximize value, IMO.

[ThreeAces]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising from MP3 is good here, since you really want to limit the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't think you want to limit the field w/ JTs.

[Cardzy]

I can understand where you coming from, but some of these $1/$2 games are very tight. I'm amazed at how tight they are compared to .50/$1 and even some of the higher limits I have been watching. Strange stuff.

But you are correct, a blind steal attempt from that position is kinda ridiculous thinking at these levels.

So at moment the real discussion is "did I want to limit the field or not?" Should I have limped or raised preflop as first in? Would love to hear more comments pertaining to this.

[Hack]

You want the remaining 4 people in this pot with you. JTs is a somewhat speculative hand that makes 4 nut straights and nice flushes. It plays great in a 7 or 8 person pot where you can beat them with a nice str8/flush or even two pair rarely. It's not a great hand 2 or 3 way.

[OrianasDaad]

I stand corrected. I guess JTs doesn't hold enough overcard strength to raise here often enough. Just did some research in SSHE and HEPFAP, and mabye fixed a potential leak in my own game.

[Cardzy]

That's great news OrianasDaad! Hmm, Ok, so the majority feel this should be limped in with? I may need to modify my strategy a bit on this then.

What about hands like QTs, QJs, KTs? Do you think those should be raised first in from this position?

[Hack]

I think you should limp with those. I raise ATs here, KJs here, and KQs here, but not the 3 you listed.

I'll raise QJs and KTs one off the button and on it, but not from MP in a tight game like this one.

[Cardzy]

From the majority of people's opininon here, I think you are right Hack. I may have just found a leak in my game as well. I'm gonna have to keep that in mind as I'm playing and try it out for a while. I tend to be very aggressive and have always raised with these hands. Probably comes from how long it took me to figure out how to properly be aggressive in the first place. Now I'm addicted to the aggression. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Hack]

Yeah, the reason you don't want this heads up or 3-way I think is if the board completely misses you. Sometimes you can bet them out but sometimes they won't fold and if you don't pair up or hit a big hand their ace high or king high will beat you.

[droolie]

Nice hand. I like this pf raise. I agree with the other posters who said that this shand is best played mutliway but in this spot you're unlikely to get many more limpers anyway. There is also a good chance that you have the best hand. A raise here very likely gets you HU with one of the blinds which is +EV. J10s has so many ways to hit the flop you have to like your chances against blind defenders.

[Entity]

This whole hand looks like standard shorthanded play to me. Once it's folded to me in MP3 I'm raising any two I'm playing, and JTs is fine there. I think this is a more tentative raise when the CO and Button are uberloose and will coldcall raises. I don't want to pay two bets for this hand out of position, but it's fine in scenarios where LP players will fold for two bets preflop regularly.

Flop bet is standard, and given the lack of aggression on the flop, turn bet is standard too. Nice hand.

Oh yeah -- find a new table. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[jskills]

I can't say I love the preflop raise myself. But once you started leading, I guess the thing to do was to keep leading. The bet on the flop was ok with 2 overcards and BD str8 draw. The bet on the turn was a slight gamble. You're going to lose almost everytime someone is holding Kx. However, since you had "bought yourself the button", I think it was a decent play against the blinds.

I think a play like this depends a bit on the table image you have set up for yourself in prior hands. If you're viewed as a tight/solid player, this play has a better chance of succeeding ...

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't say I love the preflop raise myself. But once you started leading, I guess the thing to do was to keep leading. The bet on the flop was ok with 2 overcards and BD str8 draw. The bet on the turn was a slight gamble. You're going to lose almost everytime someone is holding Kx. However, since you had "bought yourself the button", I think it was a decent play against the blinds.

I think a play like this depends a bit on the table image you have set up for yourself in prior hands. If you're viewed as a tight/solid player, this play has a better chance of succeeding ...

[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't love the preflop raise, I'm hoping that you're advocating a fold.

Rob

[jskills]

Advocating a fold? I'd call with J10s in an unraised pot in middle position. With 4 players behind you and being out of position for the rest of the hand, isn't the risk of a reraise not worth it? Also, isn't suited connectors like J10 the kind of hand where you'd like to keep people in?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Advocating a fold? I'd call with J10s in an unraised pot in middle position. With 4 players behind you and being out of position for the rest of the hand, isn't the risk of a reraise not worth it? Also, isn't suited connectors like J10 the kind of hand where you'd like to keep people in?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero is in MP3, not just "middle position" -- there are two players left to act. Like I said, any hand I'm playing here, I'm playing for a raise. It's too late to hope for callers to build an implied odds hand.

Rob

[jskills]

Sorry I thought MP3 meant middle position 3. Also, when I said 4 players left to act behind him, I meant 4 players who had to act after his bet preflop.

I definitely see your point about raising since you're first in believe me. I personally like to have bigger cards to make that move myself.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I thought MP3 meant middle position 3. Also, when I said 4 players left to act behind him, I meant 4 players who had to act after his bet preflop.

I definitely see your point about raising since you're first in believe me. I personally like to have bigger cards to make that move myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

All I'm saying is that openlimping here, with any hand, sucks. MP3 does mean the third middle position slot, which comes after everything except CO and Button.

Rob

[jskills]

Raise with any playable hand in MP3 if first in the pot? Even a small pocket pair or 109s?

So you're saying you don't care about the possibility that CO, button, SB, or BB could reraise, since the chances are slim?

I appreciate your insight here.

[droolie]

I think you only raise if you decide the hand is worth playing. Many hands that are playable with a couple limpers are no longer playable without them. You may decide that 910s doesn't give you enough implied odds to play with 3 or less players so folding is fine. Raising from late mid to late position at 1/2 party often gets the hand HU or steals the blinds. Stealing the blinds is what you really want here. Being HU is fine with a smallish pocket pair if you are good HU. I think the better you are shorthanded the more you will like this play.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise with any playable hand in MP3 if first in the pot? Even a small pocket pair or 109s?

So you're saying you don't care about the possibility that CO, button, SB, or BB could reraise, since the chances are slim?

I appreciate your insight here.

[/ QUOTE ]
How small of a pocket pair? There are games (with weaktight blinds and tight players behind me) where 55 is raisable here, but usually I'll raise 66+. T9s is a fold more often than not, but I'll raise it sometimes too.

If the players behind me are the sort who are likely to reraise with lots of hands, then I'm folding T9s and JTs here.

But regardless of whether I prefer folding or raising, I can think of very few situations where I'm happy limping here. Actually, I don't think I can think of any.

Rob

[jskills]

I think I get it now. If you're first in and close to late, may as well raise or not play at all. It does make sense.

I think I'm a little too attached to the starting hands chart in SSH. It's helped a great deal in getting my VPIP down where it should be, but I guess the prescribed actions aren't always on point, given various circumstances ...

Thanks!

[jskills]

Like Entity's posts, this makes sense.

Thanks!

[John Paul]

I like the PF raise. So far nobody is in the is pot, and you'd prefer not to end up 3-way vs the blinds (although that is what happened here). Against unraised blinds, any flop could give them a great hand, and there is no way to tell, especially if they are passive post-flop. I'd rather make it clear early on that calling down will be expensive and hope they will fold. JT is not the greatest hand overcards-wise, but JJ or TT can win the pot short-handed often enought to make raising (as opposed to folding) a good move.

[Trix]

I play it like this most of the time.

[Grisgra]

If you don't bet, they can't fold. I'd play it the same way -- I put them on overs or medium/small pockets on the flop call, and when the King hits -- well, one of them has one, or one of them doesn't.

You're risking one BB to win 4.5BB at that point good enough odds. After all, you can always slow down or check/fold if they call. You need to get crap like A8o to fold, so it's a good bet.

[Cardzy]

[ QUOTE ]

But regardless of whether I prefer folding or raising, I can think of very few situations where I'm happy limping here. Actually, I don't think I can think of any.

[/ QUOTE ]

These have always been my thoughts as well.

Interesting how now the concensus is to raise preflop. Hmm, so what do I do when actually playing these hands? Good arguments for limping and raising have been given. I do hate to limp as first in though.

I have found $1/$2 to be extremely tight compared to .50/$1 as I could very easily find a table with average 30% or more seeing the flop at .50/$1. At $1/$2 I'm lucky to find them over 20%. This is the other reason I raised, as there are a lot of tight players that would fold between my MP3 position and the BB.

Ok, so I'm not sure if this is a leak in my game or not. It sounds more like a close call between raising and calling in this situation and both ways are probably equally profitable as the limp could bring more money in the pot when you do it and you will win often enough with a raise as well. At least this is what I'm coming up with so far.