How Tight is to Tight

[scott2130]

The other day a fellow 2+2er tracked me at 24 VPIP blah blah before the flop. He told me I should be 15 - 18 and needed to tighten up. He even went as far as sending me a spreadsheet to follow and bring my score down.

Is he right on the score being that low? I think trying to tighten up threw my game off because now I lost my edge and money. I guess it could be that down swing everyone is talking about because my cards do seem to be improving.

Is it ok to be a SLAG instead of a TAG as long as I'm not a [censored]?

[trentcroad]

15-18 is really what u want.
It can be a but higher in a very loose/passive game but generallt below 20 is the mark.

[Stork]

I've heard 18-22 to be optimal. At microlimits, lean more toward the 22 mark.

[cyblib53]

Sorry to ask a silly question, but what is VPIP and where is it from (a book, a program or what)?

Thanks

[ThreeAces]

Great first post, and very good questions. Get Ed Miller's and David Sklansky's Small Stakes Hold'em. There, you'll learn that VP$IP means "voluntarily put money in the pot." You'll also learn how to play better. Guarantied.

[itsmesteve]

it really depends (of course). like stork implied, at the microlimits you can be looser as the players are worse and you can make up for some loose calls with good play post flop. that being said, i myself am still too loose 22-24%, but i'm working on it.

another thing to consider is the sample size our fellow poster has on you. VPIP of 24% over 100 hands or so can't mean too much. that being said, i'm sure he/she is honestly trying to help (and probably thought of sample size as well).

one of the best ways i've found to lower my VPIP is to 1. stop coldcalling except in VERY RARE circumstances and 2. cut down on the hands i complete in the sb (there were WAAAAY too many before).

All this being said, I think the low VPIP numbers are the ideal for reasons arrived at by those with much more mathmatical knowledge, as well as poker knowledge and experience than me, and i'm inclined to believe'em.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it ok to be a SLAG instead of a TAG as long as I'm not a [censored]?

[/ QUOTE ]

i deem your information: INSUFFICIENT

if you just play party .50/1.00 at nights and weekends, then you could get away with 20-22 VPIP.

if you just play party 1/2 during the day, then 15 might be better.

[Hack]

Where does SSH mention VP$IP? I own the book, could you maybe tell me the section that it is it so I could read it?

Thanks.

[Hack]

Just like you told me bt, his Sample size is probably too small.

I find that some nights when I get bad cards my VP$IP is around 13-14, and other nights when the deck is hitting me over the head it's 25-26. It usually averages around 19-20, which i think is fine for microlimits. Put that with a PFR% of 10% and you could say that I'm a TAG, or sLAG, but I prefer to put myself in the tag category.

[ThreeAces]

You're right, come to think of it. "SSH" has become such a Bible for me that I tend to think every great idea must have come from it. Though "VP$IP" comes from elsewhere (PokerTracker maybe? Which the new player should also obtain) I stand by my recommendation that the new player should get SSH. I also stand humbly corrected.

[kenberman]

I am a /images/graemlins/laugh.gif in PT: SL-A-A, with a VPIP of 23 after about 15K hands at .50/1 on Party, playing nights and weekends. Winrate currently 3bb/100. Could my winrate be higher if I played fewer hands? Probably. But I like to GAMBOOOOL /images/graemlins/cool.gif and find myself in lots of ideal games.

I've only played about 3K hands at 1/2, but my VPIP is very similar, and my winrate (albeit at a very small sample) is slightly higher than my .50/1 winrate.

I'm not sure what my point is, except to say this: a VPIP of 15-18 is not neccesary, and may not even be ideal at Party .50/1. (most people in micro would probably disagree with that statement I think).

In a tough game, 15-18 is where you want to be. Party .50/1 is far from tough, and presents you chances to make a few more hands profitable. Therefore, I think maximizing value at .50/1 should require you to play more hands than at 5/10, for instance.

Suffice to say, your VPIP should vary according to game structure and your own post flop ability.

[DMBFan23]

In response to the responses to your question, I like this pattern as a cheap and fairly self sustaining way to starting off at online low limit hold em poker. (ie, dont buy ssh and pokertracker just yet!)

1) read a good beginner's book, winning low limit hold em by lee jones or hilger's internet texas hold em are often mentioned.

2) start off at a microlimit - either .05/.10, .10/.20, .25/.50, whatever your bankroll permits. you want AT LEAST 200 Big Bets at your limit, so 20 bucks at .05/.10 - 300 BB is the quoted standard thought. post hands as you play, and we'll help you out.

3) once you build up your bankroll to 300 BB for the next higher limit, move up.

somewhere in here, once you've read, reread, and understand your book of choice (winning low limit hold em?) and played a LOT (like 7,000 hands or so), buy Small stakes hold em, by miller, sklansky and malmuth.

4) repeat step 3 until you have about 300 bucks (that would be 300 big bets for .5/1).

5) dig up homer's "building a bankroll for newbies" post, and bonus whore for a little while.

6) using 55 of your bonus dollars, buy poker tracker

7) become a micro limit beast.

[Hack]

I stand with you on your recommendation.

SSH has made me a consistently winning player.

It is very mathematical but very awesome.

[Hack]

I really recommend a full 300 BB bankroll for the micro limits. The swings can be crazy and it would be terrible for a beginner to go bust with 200 BB if they hit a downswing like I had last week and the week before.

So if he plays .05/.10 I recommend he have a $30.00 bankroll at his site of choice.

[OrangeKing]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, come to think of it. "SSH" has become such a Bible for me that I tend to think every great idea must have come from it. Though "VP$IP" comes from elsewhere (PokerTracker maybe? Which the new player should also obtain) I stand by my recommendation that the new player should get SSH. I also stand humbly corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know, VP$IP is from PokerTracker. I'm sure it's possible it originated somewhere else, though.

[jskills]

I've seen a number of opinions on this. I think a VPIP of 16-20 is great when you're playing at the 2/4 or 3/6 levels. For micro limits, I've seen a VPIP in the low 20's work just fine. You also have to make sure you've played enough hands to accurately judge your VPIP. A sample size of 10,000 hands should give you a solid indication.

24 is a little high, so you could tighten up your starting requirements a bit, but I'd caution againsts getting obsessed with stats vs. playing solid poker and reading opponents in a given situation. Time will tell ...

[Emmitt2222]

Yay, time to join in on the newbie thread. Seems like every response has come from people I have never seen with under 100 posts. So I would say what other people have said, maybe try to tighten up a little but dont make it your main focus. The person who tracked you could be wrong depending on sample size because I have tracked some of the best micro 2+2ers and after over 100 hands they were still sLAA so dont worry about what that person said to you. Also, Kenberman, you most likely do not want your vpip for 1/2 anywhere over 20 because that game is tighter and calls for better hand selection.

*Emmitt

[Hack]

Hey DMB, do you or anyone know where I can find Homer's building a bankroll for newbies post? I guess I'm not sure of Homer's actual 2+2 username because I punched in his name and building a bankroll and had it search for 1 yr and newer and it found nothing.

TIA,
hack

[flair1239]

VPIP is completely dependent upon the characteristics of your table.

On certain tables with mutliple limpers in front of you. Even hands like 86s become playable for one bet from the button. On a table with the same characteritics it might even be appropriate to play suited junk from the SB.

On a tighter table all those hands become unplayable for the most part.

Additionally, on a very loose and passive table, where you are confident that you are not likely to be raised PF, you can play any pair from EP and Axs. You can even limp from MP with hands like QJo and JTo.

In my opinion setting a percentage goal without taking into account the table and the players is really a bad idea. However givent the choice between too tight and too loose I guess I would err upon the side of caution.

Instead of going by a spread sheet, study the different strenghs and weaknesses of the various hands and apply those to your situation.

[KLGambiT]

Hack, i believe this is the right post, sorry i dont know how to make a link outof it

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=inet&Number=1060198&Forum= ,,,All_Forums,,,&Words=%2Bbuilding%20%2Bnewbies&Se archpage=3&Limit=25&Main=1060198&Search=true&where =bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y& olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1060198

[Hack]

That worked fine. Thanks a ton KT.

[k000k]

That actually sounds kinda condescending to me, that another player would send you a chart. How long did the guy track you for, a few hundred hands tops probably? I bet I can find a 300 hand run in my PT where my VP$IP was 40% and another where it was 3%.

I think VP$IP should probably be around 17-19%, for .5/1 anyway, I'm on the low end of this range. The extra couple % of hands are so close to 0 EV, you lose practically nothing by folding em. And, folding these few extra hands will noticably lower your variance.

[davelin]

I added up the probability of all pocket cards, any suited Ace, suited connectors down to 98s, unsuited broadways and still only got around 19%. Add in times you call any suited in the SB, minus times you don't cold call some of these hands, I still don't know how you guys get a VPIP over 20 /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Siingo]

Preflop you save money and postflop you win money.. Even if you are a SLAG you can still be a winning player. I am a SLAG ( and almost a LAG sometimes ) but I am still winning...

If someone looked at my stat then they would have hard to understand how I can win...

I have played over 100K hands and have around 95K hands ( party and paradise ) in pokertracker and I have played at .5/1, 1/2, 2/4, 3/6. I have not enough sampelsice to say that this numpers is accurate but I think it is enough to say that I am winning.

At party have I almost 15K hands at .5/1 ( and almost the same at paradise ). My VP$IP is 30.36% and my BB/100 is 5.75 at .5/1. When I now play at 3/6 have I managed to tighten up some but my VP$IP is still 26% and my BB/100 is 3.25 but my sampelsice is only above 12K hands. But I do belive that I can beat 3/6 with 2 BB/100 atleast.

I play in sweden. That mean I play often when US have early mornig. The game is a lot tighter then (most of the time only 1 or 2 players with VPIP above 25%) and I do often try to steel if I can. And if someone try to steel from me then I often raise if I know that he will fold to one bet if he do not hit the flop. If I hit the flop then I play the hand from there and if I do not hit the flop then I bet. And if he is a player that fold if he do not hit then he fold more than 50% of the time. This give me a preaty high preflop Raise ( 11.89 at 3/6 ) and a high VPIP. This also give me a high win % ( for all my hands have I a win% of 11.6% ).

The problem with this kind of game is if I only tilt a litel or lose my concentration a litel then I lose a lot of money. I play on a thin edge....

If I had tighten up more in the beggining then I think that I would win more now. The problem is that it is hard for me to learn to tighten now but I am working on it. I have to play a diffrent typ of game then. But I am working on it.

So my answer is that yes with a good postflop play then you can win even if you do not tighten up but you can probably win more if you tighten up. And it is easier to tight up now than to tight up after 100K hands so start now!

[Hack]

Is a 19 VP$IP fine?

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
I added up the probability of all pocket cards, any suited Ace, suited connectors down to 98s, unsuited broadways and still only got around 19%. Add in times you call any suited in the SB, minus times you don't cold call some of these hands, I still don't know how you guys get a VPIP over 20 /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure...I play pretty close to the loose chart, and I'm at 24.

Others have said similar things: the extra hands I play (that make me a 24 instead of a 17 for instance) are fairly close to neutral EV. People who obsess (and this isn't directed to you davelin) over trying get from a 20 VPIP to an 18 or 19 could be spending their time improving their game in much more productive ways, imho.

[scott2130]

I got alot more responses then I expected but it was well worth it.

First, the guy that tracked and gave me a spreadsheet was trying to help me and I thank him for that. I took it only in the best way. I have a few spreadsheets myself and as far as I could tell his was based on Lee Jones's starting hands.

I was at 1/2 btw.
After reading the posts let me say that I now think it was just to small of a sample size. I am probably a little loose but I over doubled my starting money that day so I had to be doing something right. I also was trying to hard to follow the chart and lost my edge.

When I think about being tight I think back to the first time I read Lee Jones' book. I thought it was a joke to only play those hands. I mean look at the power of 52o. But as I play more hands and get beat by kickers or flushes I am learning that Lee and Ed are right to play only those hands. For me it has to be a process though. At .5/1 I was say 28 vpip and at 1/2 I am 24 vpip. Who knows, when I get to 2/4 maybe I will be down to 20 vpip. I think if I get tighter the higher I go I will be alright. I agree with the one post that in any given game it might be optimal to be loose and throw the VPIP out the window.

Finally, I am caving in and buying Poker Tracker today. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif
This will give me the proper info over the correct sample size.

Thanks to all that responded

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Is a 19 VP$IP fine?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess if your table selection and postflop skills are good. When I hear of some posters say they have a VPIP around 24%, I just don't know where it could come from.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
Is a 19 VP$IP fine?

[/ QUOTE ]

19% is fine. I'd say anything under 20 is good.

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
At party have I almost 15K hands at .5/1 ( and almost the same at paradise ). My VP$IP is 30.36% and my BB/100 is 5.75 at .5/1. When I now play at 3/6 have I managed to tighten up some but my VP$IP is still 26% and my BB/100 is 3.25 but my sampelsice is only above 12K hands. But I do belive that I can beat 3/6 with 2 BB/100 atleast.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be one hell of a postflop player, 30% is really REALLY loose to have win rates that high!

[DMBFan23]

did you add in hands like KTs/KJs? I don't see where they fall in your addition

[Sasnak]

Count me in the VP$IP<13% category right now, but improving. I've won over 400BB's since adopting SSH tight chart hands with a couple of wide variances over the past month and my numbers are increasing. I'm shooting for 18% but I've been so squeaky tight for so long I find it difficult to play some of the hands recommended.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
did you add in hands like KTs/KJs? I don't see where they fall in your addition

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, yes suited and unsuited broadways.

[DMBFan23]

just curious, I don't doubt the strategic merits of your claim...I'm a shade under 18 VP$IP, and at 1/2 I don't see where I could loosen up.

[jskills]

What name do you play under at Party?

[Cardzy]

[ QUOTE ]
just curious, I don't doubt the strategic merits of your claim...I'm a shade under 18 VP$IP, and at 1/2 I don't see where I could loosen up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell at $1/$2 on Empire I'm at around 15.5% on average and I don't see where I could loosen up. LOL.

[bathroompants]

I'm interested in checking out this spreadsheet, any chance you could email it to me?

[Siingo]

Noway I tell that now when I have posted this /images/graemlins/smile.gif! That would be like killing myself.

And yes you have to be OK postflop to have a good BB/100. But that was my typ of play. But many of the hands is hands that if you play them at this limit then you will go around +/- 0 on those hands. Not lose a lot. And if you steel a litel more and protect you blinds more then VPIP will go up preaty quick. And the sampelsice is not big enough to be significant. If I play more then it might go down some or up.. Who know...

[Siingo]

It is possible for you!

Hmm my stat when I played 1/2 ( 3 month ago )...
Total hands: 24721
VP$IP: 25,81
BB/100: 2,44

This is the limit where I have my lowest VP$IP... 2.44 is not a great BB/100 but I was winning /images/graemlins/laugh.gif... But I might have won more if I would have played tighter..

[shummie]

It's funny... like 2 or 3 new guys asked what "VP$IP" was and they got three responses. (1)Look in Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller and Slanksy (2)It might be a Poker Tracker stat and (3)It IS a Poker Tracker stat.

Well it is a stat in Poker Tracker. And some people may have figured out by now, but VP$IP (or VPIP) stands for Voluntarily Put Money into Pot. Basically it means what percentage of the time you call or bet.

And just to show that I'm not a know it all... /images/graemlins/wink.gif to you guys who are asking why you have high VP$IP even though you have such tight starting hand selections: Does the VP$IP stat only track voluntarily calling/raising PREFLOP or does it track throughout the entire hand? If it's the latter, you could have tight starting hands reqs but take them too far... thus giving you a high VP$IP.

Peace,

Jason

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny... like 2 or 3 new guys asked what "VP$IP" was and they got three responses. (1)Look in Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller and Slanksy (2)It might be a Poker Tracker stat and (3)It IS a Poker Tracker stat.

Well it is a stat in Poker Tracker. And some people may have figured out by now, but VP$IP (or VPIP) stands for Voluntarily Put Money into Pot. Basically it means what percentage of the time you call or bet.

And just to show that I'm not a know it all... /images/graemlins/wink.gif to you guys who are asking why you have high VP$IP even though you have such tight starting hand selections: Does the VP$IP stat only track voluntarily calling/raising PREFLOP or does it track throughout the entire hand? If it's the latter, you could have tight starting hands reqs but take them too far... thus giving you a high VP$IP.

Peace,

Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Just pre-flop