Two hands - QJs and QQ

[Hack]

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds, BB calls.

River: (7.20 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB


PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

I prob should have given credit for an Ace here and folded.


Turn: (9.20 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, UTG calls.

River: (13.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 17.20 BB

[Shillx]

I don't know much about these limits, but on hand #2 I am done betting after 2 people coldcall me on the flop (with a pretty drawless board). There is almost no way I can see you being good, but I might be overestimating these people.

Hand 1: I think I'm check/calling the turn.

[Hack]

Bettor is to my left in Hand 1. You don't like a check-raise to trap the people in between for another bet, exploiting my equity edge?

100/4=25%. But I have 33% equity because of my OESD.

As for Hand 2, is it okay to check-fold it? Chances are in 5 a field of 5 that someone has an Ace. They'll be passive and call me down with A3o, A4o, so why not check-fold and save myself the agony?

[Shillx]

Huh?

Going for a flop c/r is good.

[Hack]

Ah ok.

What about my reasoning in hand 2?

[Shillx]

I don't mind the flop raise in hand 2. I'm not going to keep putting money into the pot if I don't get it heads up. With 2 coldcallers, I'm check/folding the turn...i think.

Brad

[Hack]

But it is my experience in hands like hand 2 that with 4 opponents and an ace flops that I am likely beat. I'm not saying it's a bad beat nothing like that.

I'm just saying that I don't think it's weak tight to check-fold there, since 90% of the time I am drawing to 2 outs.

[Shillx]

Folding/Raising the flop is merely a function of the opponent who is betting into you. There was no read on this player (I think), so it is hard to give advice. If the player is weak-tight, I'm folding 100% of the time.

Brad

[Hack]

He's not weak-tight but he's loose-passive. He's a typical fish and he normally does not raise. Most people at this limit do not bet middle pair into a pre-flop raiser, they will call with it. The fact that he bet into me indicates an Ace or better.

[Emmitt2222]

Pot=big, you like to win big pots so you should raise to try and knock out lots of people. I am almost positive that from SSHE this is the exact thing to do. When no one folds then just check/fold on the turn. Hand 1 I like to try for the check/raise to trap everyone in between for two, too bad it didn't work.

[Hack]

What's the point when you have a good read on the player and are fairly certain he has an Ace? Knocking people out won't help you at all if you're only drawing to two distinct outs.

[Emmitt2222]

He could have KQ and like his draw or J2 in which case you can conterfiet him. I have gotten scared of a fish betting before only to figure out later he didnt have exactly what I thought he did. You cant automatically figure he has an ace and you want to give yourself the best chance to win this pot so raise.

[Hack]

I feel like I am throwing money down the drain with this flop 90% of the time. I really feel that I make the correct play by check-folding this hand on the flop. It sucks when your top pairs like cowboys and ladies flop an Ace but you just gotta deal. Fish love calling raises with Ax preflop so you just have to deal.

I think that I save money over the long run by learning how to untangle myself from situations like this and taking my bankroll and fighting on another hand.

You may disagree.

[Hack]

What's the pct chance of a counterfeit by the river?

[toddw8]

Hand 1: Nice try on the c/r on the flop. Check/call the turn unless you think you have a good chance to take it down right there with a bet (unlikely with 3 LP opponents).

Hand 2: I will reiterate. You need to raise this flop! Even if you think your Queens are ahead only 10% of the time you have the pot odds to continue when you take into consideration your Queen outs and runner runner straight draw. And if you are going to continue, you need to protect your hand. Forcing the field to face 2 bets cold is the perfect way to do this.

With all the coldcalls behind on the flop, you should check/call the turn and river here.

[VBM]

Hand 1:
i'd raise preflop.
bet the flop.
check-call the turn.

Hand 2:
check-fold the turn.

[Hack]

Check call the river? Not check-fold turn unimproved?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I am throwing money down the drain with this flop 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're playing scared and that 90% is a large overestimte (Do this exercise: Go back through your hand histories and look at how many times a bet when an ace falls actually means a pair of aces. I suspect you'll find something in the 40-60% range -- if not even a bit lower). But even still, did you know that with over 11 SB in the pot on the flop after his bet, that even if you're trailing UTG 75% of the time, putting in a raise here isn't that bad? You've got perfect position on him, a pretty decent hand, and a good sized pot to fight for. Sometimes you'll buy yourself a free card on the turn, sometimes you set yourself up to take the pot down on the turn with another bet (know your opponents!).

Go ahead and put in the extra bet now to see what happens. You'll also get good information if you're 3-bet or if you're coldcalled. If you just call, then you're inviting all sorts of hands to come along cheaply with their weak draws. Folding here is simply too weak given the size of the pot.

Once you get coldcalled in a couple spots, then it's okay to start thinking about folding. Besides, at a more 'meta-game' level, if you start raising preflop and folding to a single bet postflop, you're going to encourage players to take shots at you. Most of the time, you're going to miss your flops, and you're giving away too much when you give up that easily.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that I save money over the long run by learning how to untangle myself from situations like this and taking my bankroll and fighting on another hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

"Untangle" does not mean folding to a single flop bet out of fear. "Untangle" for this hand means giving up on the turn.

[toddw8]

My mistake. Check/fold is the right decision here. With everyone coming along to the turn, your 10% chance of being ahead has probably shrunk. Add to that the likelyhood that you will have to call another bet on the river and the decision becomes easy. However, if the turn is checked through it probably wouldn't be a big mistake to make a crying call on the river, especially if there are no overcalls.