Letting go of AK - wussy fold or good play?

[Knoler]

Through 20 hands the bad guy has been TAG-ish, with 18% VP$IP and 6% PFR. Seems aggressive post flop, too.

Anyone play this differently?


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Thanks,
-Brian

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone play this differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I 3-bet the flop. If he caps, fold the turn. If he calls and checks the turn, take the free card unless you hit a A or K.

[droolie]

Standard play. What else can you do?

[Shillx]

There is no good way to play this hand. He has 14 outs if he has a diamond draw, so making it 3-bets on the flop is pointless. Raising the turn to charge the draw is way too risky IMO (compared to the reward). Hell, he might even have you beat anyway.

You played it about as good as anyone can expect.

Brad

[TomBrooks]

According to expert sources I have:

1. It is a mistake to bet with overcards, including AK, on the flop. If you have a backdoor draw such as you did however, you can call a bet.

2. Your fold on the turn was correct. Is is almost never correct to call a bet on the turn with an unpaired AK unless it has other drawing chances.

Cheers,
TomBk

[Shillx]

I disagree with everything you just said /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
1. It is a mistake to bet with overcards, including AK, on the flop. If you have a backdoor draw such as you did however, you can call a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Terrible.

[Hack]

I call the raise and check fold the turn unimproved.

Feel free to rip on me for that but that's what I do in this situation.

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]

2. Your fold on the turn was correct. Is is almost never correct to call a bet on the turn with an unpaired AK unless it has other drawing chances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also not good. Imagine my holding AKo in MP. Flop is Q-7-2 rainbow. I'm playing party .5/1, game is loose, 6 to the flop (12 SB). I bet, get raised from the back, 3 call (10 BB). On the turn I check, everyone else checks and the bad guy bets. It gets folded around to me. I'm getting 11:1 where I've got 6 outs to top pair. I'd call that turn bet.

Regards,
-Brian

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with everything you just said /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well my expert source is Lee Jones in his book "Winning Low Limit Hold'Em, 2nd Ed, Pgs. 110-111, Sections titled "Playing Overcards On The Flop" and AK Overcards On The Flop."

Please point out exactly what in the text you disagree with or where I misinterpreted something. If he or I am mistaken, I would certainly welcome the correction.

Thanks,
TomBk

[Hack]

But that is 6 to the flop. This is 3 to the flop. 46:6 to hit your pair on the river, and you can count implied odds too I guess. It's a real thin call if CO folds. I fold the turn.

What's wrong with that?

[Hack]

Lee Jones is seen by some as a weak-tight guy around here, and that his book re-inforces weak-tight play on those who read it. He doesn't advocate pumping flush draws for value or any concepts like that. You will win money with his strategy but lots less than you could be winning with a more aggressive strategy. His starting hand charts are also too tight.

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]
I call the raise and check fold the turn unimproved.

Feel free to rip on me for that but that's what I do in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I won't rip on you since that's what I did.

First time we disagree, though -- watch out! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,
-Brian

[droolie]

WLLH is for raw beginners. It is designed to help beginners avoid costly situations and teaches weak tight system that will be succssful at micro limits. It will not work nearly as well in higher limits against more aggressive players. It is a good place to start but do not take everything that is written in that book as gospel. Many of the posters here have "graduated" from WLLH to Small Stakes Hold 'Em by Ed Miller. It teaches a more aggressive, more mathematically sound approach that is very complicated and ultimatley riskier to the beginner. Attacking in these situations is dangerous but can clearly correct play. If you never bet your overcards you are leaving a great deal of money on the table.

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]
But that is 6 to the flop. This is 3 to the flop. 46:6 to hit your pair on the river, and you can count implied odds too I guess. It's a real thin call if CO folds. I fold the turn.

What's wrong with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing at all. In fact, that's what I did in the hand I posted.

I was replying to Tom's hypothetical -- fold nearly all AK hands if you're raised into on the flop when unimproved on the turn -- with a hypothetical of my own illustrating why that blanket generalization is incorrect.

However, in the situation you describe, Hack, I very much agree, and am inclined to fold.

Regards,
-Brian

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine my holding AKo in MP. Flop is Q-7-2 rainbow. ...I bet, get raised from the back, 3 call (10 BB). On the turn I check, everyone else checks and the bad guy bets. It gets folded around to me. I'm getting 11:1 where I've got 6 outs to top pair. I'd call that turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ] Hi Brian,
According to Jones, you weren't suppossed to make even one bet, much less 3-bet that flop. Since however, in your example you did, the pot became swollen, and under those circumstances a turn bet may have become correct.

-Regards, TomBk

Edit note: While I was writing this, some other replies came in quickly about Lee Jones book/stategy that I only read after I wrote this. I'll look at them closer now.

[Hack]

Gotcha.

Just a misunderstanding then.

Warm Wishes,
Hack

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
1. It is a mistake to bet with overcards, including AK, on the flop. If you have a backdoor draw such as you did however, you can call a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has the best hand the vast majority of the time on this flop, and not betting it would be a mistake.

You want a counteropinion to this? Read SSH. It's much better than WLLH.

Rob

[Hack]

I totally never said that. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I totally never said that. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I totally was responding to the other guy. Sorry.

[Hack]

It's cool. :P

Here's what I said, for reference:

[ QUOTE ]
I call the raise and check fold the turn unimproved.

Feel free to rip on me for that but that's what I do in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
2. Your fold on the turn was correct. Is is almost never correct to call a bet on the turn with an unpaired AK unless it has other drawing chances.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is flat wrong. Often you will get odds to call the turn with your unpaired AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, etc. Overcards = 6 outs to top pair. This is often worth a call on the turn, especially if you raised preflop, making the pot big enough to justify a call. You probably need better than the 6.7 to 1 odds you have to make your hand (accounting for the possility of being against sets or reverse domination), but you will often get it.

Your "expert source," the Jones book, is good, but it has some shortcomings. It's a great primer and fixes the biggest leaks beginners have. It teaches some basic, ABC concepts. What is does not do is teach you something a winning poker player has to do sometimes: sling your balls over you shoulder and BET (or call)!

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]

Well my expert source is Lee Jones in his book "Winning Low Limit Hold'Em, 2nd Ed, Pgs. 110-111, Sections titled "Playing Overcards On The Flop" and AK Overcards On The Flop."

Please point out exactly what in the text you disagree with or where I misinterpreted something. If he or I am mistaken, I would certainly welcome the correction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Tom,

Have you read Small Stakes Hold 'Em yet? If not, you might want to take a look at it. It describes a vastly different style of play in some regars, when compared to WLLH.

The author of Small Stakes is a regular poster here, and posted some of his interpretations regarding WLLH's weak/tight-ness here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=&amp;Number=737740&amp;page=&amp;v iew=&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=). It is specific to examples from that text, and I'd recommend checking it out.

Regards,
-Brian

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Imagine my holding AKo in MP. Flop is Q-7-2 rainbow. ...I bet, get raised from the back, 3 call (10 BB). On the turn I check, everyone else checks and the bad guy bets. It gets folded around to me. I'm getting 11:1 where I've got 6 outs to top pair. I'd call that turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ] Hi Brian,
According to Jones, you weren't suppossed to make even one bet, much less 3-bet that flop. Since however, in your example you did, the pot became swollen, and under those circumstances a turn bet may have become correct.

-Regards, TomBk

Edit note: While I was writing this, some other replies came in quickly about Lee Jones book/stategy that I only read after I wrote this. I'll look at them closer now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Tom,

Quick note -- and I realize that my hasty hypothetical example may have been unclear -- I didn't suggest 3-betting an unimproved AK on the flop.

My hypothetical example (which is different than the hand I originally posted, so maybe I should have just moved this side discussion to a new thread) was trying to illustrate that I'd raise preflop, and then bet the flop. If my bet was then raised behind me, I'd call that raise (not 3-bet).

On the turn, assuming I was unimproved, I would in some situations check / call. I'd do that in those instances where I had the pot odds to draw to top pair, and I thought top pair had a good chance to be the best hand.

Regards,
-Brian

[detruncate]

Our Hero might well have the best hand against two pf callers. He also has two solid overcards (which will often win the pot for him when either of them pairs), and a backdoor flush draw to the nuts.

Having the ace of flush in his hand is a good thing -- pairing his ace won't put 3 to a flush on the board, and he has a redraw to the nuts if the king of flush falls.

Add in some fold equity and the possibility of the turn checking through if he shows aggression on the flop and I bet approximately 100% of the time.

As for your second statement... calling the turn with overcards is purely a matter of pot odds. Discount your outs appropriately and count the bets in the pot. Going too far with overcards is a common mistake made by beginning/unskilled players, so rules like "don't call the turn with overcards" do more good than harm. Just recognize that there are exceptions. This, however, isn't one of them.

Well played OP.

[Hack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone play this differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I 3-bet the flop. If he caps, fold the turn. If he calls and checks the turn, take the free card unless you hit a A or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. I call the raise and check-fold the turn unimproved.

A read would help here, considering it's overcards we're dealing with.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you read Small Stakes Hold 'Em yet? The author of Small Stakes posted some of his interpretations regarding WLLH's weak/tight-ness here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=&amp;Number=737740&amp;page=&amp;v iew=&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=).

[/ QUOTE ]Hi, I've been reading and reviewing LLHE mainly for the couple of months I've been playing, but have started reading SSHE. I hadn't realized yet that they had some fundamental differences until now though. Mostly, I'm still working on basic concepts in my game. I checked out that thread you pointed to and am reviewing it with the book.

Consequently, I will start relying more on SSHE and less on LLHE. OK!

Cheers, Tom