TPTK vs board 3 flush

[Jasmien]

Hey, table is pretty lose, with many calling stations:


Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="red">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 (has antered and posted 1SB) fold, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, , CO calls , Button folds , SB calls , BB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls

Pretty standart i think
Turn: (6.2 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="red">Hero bets</font>, everyone calls.

River: (10.00 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB ckecks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

They called me down after the flop so i put em on a checkraised flush. Id folded if SB/BB bet. But what do you do if CO bets? He could be bluffing since you show him that you fear a flush.

Final Pot: 10.00 BB



same table:


Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls, <font color="red">UTG+1 raises</font> , UTG+2 calls, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, CO calls , Button folds , SB calls , BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets</font>, <font color="red">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="red">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO folds, SB folds, <font color="red">BB caps</font>, everyone calls.


Turn: (20 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.
i maybe should have raised? Since he raised pf i put im on AK, KQ, KJ, QQ, so maybe raise? Or fear the set?

River: (24.00 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG ckecks, <font color="red">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls,<font color="red">Hero raises</font>, everyone calls.


Final Pot: 32.00 BB

[Redd]

My opinions are worth a little less than the grey-hairs around here, but I'll put in my 2 small bets:

Hand 1:
I think the call is a little weak. If these guys are calling stations, that's what they're gonna do - call! They could be calling with a weak pair or straight draw, and I think it's premature to assume that one is calling with the one hand that beats you. If they're straightforward, then keep firing and fold to a raise.

Hand 2:
Seems a little read-dependent, but my choice on the turn wouldn't be between raise and call, it would be between fold and call. I'm more scared of BB's check-cap. Against any reasonable players, with this much action I'd be pretty confident I'm behind on the turn to a set or 2-pair (would BB check-cap TPGK?). Although you're getting odds to call that single bet in the hopes of winning with a river king or maybe winning with an ace, the likelihood of the war continuing with BB makes me want to fold it on the turn.

Redd

[siccjay]

[ QUOTE ]

They called me down after the flop so i put em on a checkraised flush. Id folded if SB/BB bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad bad bad bad bad bad bad. You cannot fold for one bet on this river for ANY reason.
[ QUOTE ]

But what do you do if CO bets? He could be bluffing since you show him that you fear a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should have bet yourself and called a raise.

[Nick C]

Hand 1: I would probably bet the river. Your opponents could be calling with a number of worse non-flush-draw hands (such as a weaker king, a ten, a seven, a pocket pair, or a gutshot). Probably no one will call with a missed draw, but you might get called by the other hands I mentioned.

Still, I can see why you checked. With three opponents, you have to worry more that someone just hit a flush than you would if you had just one or two opponents (though of course you still couldn't rule it out even then). However, unless SB and BB both routinely go for a checkraise when they hit a draw, the chances of someone holding a flush did go down when the blinds checked to you.

If I bet and got checkraised, I would probably make the crying call (especially if the pot had become heads-up). But I pay off sometimes when I probably shouldn't.

However, I don't think you should be so inclined to fold to a single bet from SB or BB, if either of them lead the river. Yeah, you're probably beat, but the pot is fairly large, and sometimes players will lead the river (especially if it's a scare card) as a bluff or with hands they plan to call with anyway. (The multiway nature of this river makes what I just described less likely than it would be if the pot were heads-up, though.)

Hand 2: I think you played this well.

BB's check/cap on the flop is scary and has me fearing a set, and UTG+1 seems to like his hand a lot too. But the pot is too big for me to fold TPTK to a single turn bet. So I call, hoping BB doesn't checkraise.

I like your river raise, especially since you have three opponents and UTG+1 is probably the only one you really have to worry about at this point.

If UTG+1 3-bets, I just call. (AA and KK may seem unlikely mathematically, but he has bet and raised at every opportunity so far.)

[Jasmien]

do you think that i win often enough (11-1) to make the river call worthwhile? Mostly they wont bet if they dont have me beat. I think the chance that they bluff is pretty small since i showed alot strengh and most of my opponents would assume that i call their bet in this situation.
If i bet and get raised, im not sure if the crying call is correct. Yeah the pot is big but a check-raise at this limit is very rarely a bluff and mostly a value cr. Im not sure if this is +EV.
But maybe youre right and folding is tight/weak thinking here.

[chief444]

You need to bet before someone check/raises you. You should have definitely bet the river in hand one. I can't understand why you're so worried about a check/raise.

[Jasmien]

cause they called the whole way. So i assumed that they were drawing (and hit their flush now) and try a cr cause i bet all rounds.

[deception5]

The first line of your post says it all:

[ QUOTE ]
table is pretty lose, with many calling stations

[/ QUOTE ]

Players that fall into this category will call you down with top pair lousy kicker, second pair, bottom pair, any ace, a gutshot, or because they feel lucky.

In the first hand, the 6 could have completed a straight for someone but if you play every hand fearing what your opponents might have you will miss a lot of value bets. You also have no reason to believe they have a monster - they haven't bet or raised at all! The best way to punish these players' tendency to call too much is to make them pay every step of the way (especially when they aren't showing any aggression) when your hand is likely to be the best.

If you bet on the river here you'll get at least one caller with top pair bad kicker and probably someone else with a lower pair. The small percent of the time that you run into the flush on the river will be made up by all of these small value bets. I'd also be much more worried if one of your opponents raised you on the flop then checked the turn then raised the river.

If you get raised you can probably call one (unless the player is extremely passive) and fold to a raise and a reraise.

D5