Where's the Line

[KenProspero]

I looked for a thread on this without finding one (but if it's there and someone can direct me to it, I'd appreciate it).

Early in a game (first or second hand)

Hero Holds AA, someone goes all in. Hero Pushes -- easy call. (No further advice needed)

Hero Holds KK, someone goes all in. Hero Pushes -- again, I've read this many times here, no questions asked.

Here's the question -- where do we draw the line.

Do you push with AKs, AKo, AQs? I'm curious as to where the consensus is on the line.

Next question (really part of the same), how does position, and how many all-in callers affect the equation.

Thanks in advance.

[ColdestCall]

I would need a little more info to really reply....

I'll assume you are saying that someone in early position just raises the T15 blind all-in on the first or second hand. I'd call with AA or KK, but that is about it. It would be tough for me to lay down AK here, but what do I really think is going on? I'm not willing to risk my tourney as a small dog if raiser has pocket pair. Raiser could have AA or KK - I've seen people make this play with those hands (I assume their reasoning is that people will think they are full of crap and cant possibly be raising all-in with AA or KK, and I've seen people call them with hands like 77, so I guess maybe there is something to that...) If this person is enough of a lunatic to move in here with A-Q or less, I'm going to get their chips eventually anyway.

Basically, the all-in raise from early position in the first hand or two of an SNG is such a demented play that I usually figure the person making it has AA, KK, or AK.

[Scuba Chuck]

In lower limit SNGs, Fish will go allin with any hand. Not much can be learned from this except BAD HABITS, which will be difficult to change later on - when it matters.

The best RULE OF THUMB that I have read is from AleoMagus, which was that AK is an okay all-in hand PF & in position, if you're first to bet it, but not a good all-in hand to call with. BTW, I wouldn't call an all-in with AK in early play PF anyway, let the game come to you. There will be plenty of opportunity for you to choose your battles, use position, and build your chipstack. You don't need to build your chipstack by risking your chips on a coinflip - or worse.

Early on, stay clear away from AQ (especially since you're asking this question). In TJ Cloutier's CNL&PLHE, he suggests that you can define a player by how he plays AQ. He advocates mucking the hand in early play.

Generally speaking, if someone goes all-in in early play, and out of position, you can assume hands like AA, KK, or QQ. With position, it's possible all the way down to 99, IMO. Especially if there is a lot of limpers.

FWIW, I believe TT is ranked higher than any AK against typical all-in hands. See Hand Rankings from the good work provided Eastbay
http://rwa.homelinux.net/poker/hand-rankings.html

[KenProspero]

Thanks guys

The recent hand that led to the question, was the second hand of the game, and I'm sitting AQs on the button. Player goes all-in, one follows when it's my turn to act, and I folded (though wasn't positive if I was right). I'm glad there's some agreement on my instinct here (at least it shows some progress for me over the last couple of months).

In response to Scuba Chuck's observation -- the player who won the hand (and was the first all-in), in fact had Q8o -- and caught the miracle straight. (immediate comment in his player notes section for future reference).

The player, even with a humongous chip, lead he didn't win, which I suppose isn't too shocking given the above.

[alexbrew]

I think this is great low limit advice. The big thing is, if you can win the table late, why race early? If you can get all-in on the button though with AK and 3 limpers, this is generally a great spot. Much of the time one of those limpers will feel compelled with AJ in some ridiculous attempt to keep you honest.

I've seen Brunson muck his AQ UTG. Lederer mucked AQ to a modest raise at the 2003 WSOP. Annie Duke mucked AK to an all-in at the same event. If these players lay down these hands, it shouldn't be very hard for a pedestrian player to do.

[ColdestCall]

You did the right thing for sure. You can't call the first all-in with A-Qs, but to overcall is absolutely out of the question.

I'm guessing this is a fairly small buy-in SNG, and evidently there are lunatics there that go all-in with Q-8o, but there is no sense in getting into bad habits and overplaying A-Qs.

[zephyr]

This is a level dependent question. I currently play at the 30's and would call with AA, KK, QQ, and AK. AK being somewhat of a judgement call. I found that as you move up from the 10's-30's its much more likely that the opponent holds a big hand and is "fastplaying" it.

At the 10's I'd be tempted to call with JJ and AQ as well, as you'd likely see AJ-Ax, or a small PP enough to make it profitable.

Only my opinion,

Zephyr

[El Maximo]

I dont know where the line is but it seems I leap across it everyone now and than.

[Scuba Chuck]

Zephyr, let me see if I can summarize your comments.

A poker player of your caliber, would play it tight at higher limits - or against players of similar caliber, but is willing to risk it all at lower limits against the fish?
If so, I can respect that.

Out of curiosity, do you use pokertracker? I'm interested if you have a history of CALLING allins with AK in early play to show how much of a success rate you have? I only ask to find out how profitable it really is. Perhaps I am playing too tight.

[alexbrew]

For the level 10 buy-ins I disagree. Why make your tourney a crap shoot? If $10 buy in is the level you can afford/correctly play at, then play it smart and play to win. Just firing into pots with your chips early is going to get you knocked out of a lot of tournaments very early. There's a decent chance you're the one of best players in the game* if you can just survive the craziness of trying to knock the first 5 people out.

*anyone reading these boards and playing $10 buy-ins has probably got a huge knowledge advantage over the field.

[Scuba Chuck]

Ken, I was reading a past post of mine that made me laugh. Apparently I will have to eat my words a little...

See my post:
Do you think it's right to call this allin with AKs?

[KenProspero]

Chuck, I'm not sure I'm the right person to ask (remember, I'm the guy who wasn't 100% positive what to do with AQs).

However, rightly or wrongly (and I'd appreciate comments if I'm wrong ... even more if I'm terribly wrong) here's what I'd do.

In low level games, some people are going all-in with real crap, so, heads up, in the majority of cases AKs is at worst a slight dog, and may be a significant favorite to say AJ.

With 2 others, I figure I'm an underdog, but pot odds may yield a +ev.

In these games, once there are 3 or 4 all-ins early, I find that there's a real chance that the winner will be a major fish, and I may be able to out play him/her over the long run anyway, so unless it's AA, KK or (maybe QQ), I tend to stay out. (Once I get it down to 7 players, I figure I have 40-50% chance of finishing ITM). This may be a horrible mistake stastically, though, I'm not sure.

The real question is whether I think I have a better chance wearing the table down or going for it.

Based on the this, with AKs.

If I'm late position, I'd definately go all-in heads up, and probably would go all-in with two. If I think it's going to be 3 or more, I probably step out and watch them demolish each other.

[(my name it is) Sam Hall]

4th hand. I post this because I was holding one of two hands I would have overcalled with, even knowing what (garbage) my opponents were playing. AQ is not the other. Why take
a chance?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO (t755)
Button (t860)
SB (t785)
<font color="#C00000">BB <font color="#A500AF">(Villain2)</font> (t860)</font>
UTG (t755)
UTG+1 (t785)
UTG+2 (t855)
MP1 (t770)
<font color="#C00000">MP2 <font color="#A500AF">(Villain1)</font> (t785)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t790)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 <font color="#A500AF">(Villain1)</font> calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB <font color="#A500AF">(Villain2)</font> raises to t860 (All-In)</font>, MP2 <font color="#A500AF">(Villain1)</font> calls t770 (All-In), Hero calls t715 (All-In).

Flop: (t2445) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t2445) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

River: (t2445) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2445

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Villain2 has 3c Tc (two pair, eights and fours).
Villain1 has Kd Jc (two pair, kings and eights).
Hero has Ks Kh (full house, kings full of eights).
Outcome: Hero wins t2375. Villain2 wins t70. </font>