Give me a line kids

[sfer]

Borgata 20/40. Table was salivating over a drunk terrible player and I, along with my drool, was urged to sit by Scrub. So I left 10/20 and did. The terrible player has left after I got to muck almost exactly one orbit and now I'm sitting with one loose passive, one half LAG, scrub, and 5 other reasonable players in a bad game that's bigger than I've ever played before. Wunderbar.

I have interracial KK UTG and raise. Folded to an MP table-captain who is organizing time pots and she 3-bets. It's been an orbit and this is the first hand she's played. Folded to me and I cap.

Flop is ragged and 8 high. Bet/call.

Turn is a J. I bet, she raises, and you tell me what I should do.

[Entity]

Seems like she's got AA or JJ (really seems like JJ), but I can't see myself not calling down. Then again, I suck and I really don't play 20/40.

Rob

[private joker]

Either 3-bet and fold to a cap (drawing to 2 outs) or call the turn and lead the river/call a raise.

It's similar to the line James had to play against Evan when he had KK against the Q86 board when Evan flopped a set of 8s.

[Evan]

So you're hoping that she has AJs or QQ (or even getting tricky w/ AK?) and hoping she doesn't have AA or JJ.

Calling down would give you almost 5:1. Raising and getting 4 bet then calling down would give you ~3:1.

I think we can assume that she will play the hands you're beating more passively then the ones that beat you so you'll likely be in the latter situation more often when you're beat and the former more often when you're ahead.

I think all this says to call down, but that kinda sucks. For lack of compelling reasoning to raise I call down.

I think what you should really do is not leave that seat next to the awful lady at 10/20. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sthief09]

call, then call again

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Then again, I suck and I really don't play 20/40.

[/ QUOTE ]


it's really not as far away as you think...

[Joe Tall]

Folded to an MP table-captain who is organizing time pots and she 3-bets

250, 6'2" red haired fullback?

I bet, she raises, and you tell me what I should do.

You 3-bet, and if you feel like giving Scrub a great Christmas Gift, you give him half of what you are making after you 3-bet.

Oh, and I would have called preflop heads up versus her.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

what does 3-betting the turn accomplish? is it worth trying to stop her from drawing to 3 outs when she possibly has you drawing thin?

I agree with not capping preflop. I suggested calling then betting any flop to him, but I don't know if that's what you have in mind

[Joe Tall]

what does 3-betting the turn accomplish? is it worth trying to stop her from drawing to 3 outs when she possibly has you drawing thin?

Stop her? This is going to a showdown and she'll get weak on the river and you'll miss 2.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

how can you be so sure it's going to showdown? he doesn't have much of a read on her. she's probably not fcuking around with an underpair. she's either got him beat, or she's full of shyt. anything in between, she's probably not raising the turn. what range of hands do you put her on out of curiosity? I was thinking AA, KK, QQ, AK

[Joe Tall]

She has AJs.

Peace,
Joe tall

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
She has AJs.

Peace,
Joe tall

[/ QUOTE ]


how many people 3-bet an UTG raise preflop with AJs? he doesn't know her to be a LAG...

[Joe Tall]

how many people 3-bet an UTG raise preflop with AJs?

Not many.

he doesn't know her to be a LAG...

No, but she thinks, he is, with the amount of hands he raises preflop. She hasn't played a hand in a bit because she folds so many hands to Dave's raises. She's frustrated, knows the power of the button and AJs is the best hand she's seen all hour. She knows Dave is capable of betting this flop/turn with less and is now poppin the turn because she thinks her hand is good, or she thinks she's making a move at the pot knowing Dave to fold turns.

I'm really high right now and I hope that makes sense.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

I'm going to PM you tomorrow to remind you to read this because it doesn't make sense. he said he's been there for one orbit and has folded every hand. I just realized 2 things though:

1. if she knew Dave was a LAG, you're right
2. you write like elysium when you're high

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really high right now

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.tacobell.com/images/nov_23/bbvm_on.jpg

http://www.tacobell.com/images/nov_23/bb_on.jpg

http://whitecastle.com/_assets/logo.gif

http://whitecastle.com/_assets/images/food/menu/double_cheeseburger_lg.jpg

http://wendys.com/images/mm/mm1.jpg

[Joe Tall]

Now I'm going to puke because I don't eat beef or fast food. Or drink soda.

Barf,
Joe Tall

[arkady]

*drool*

[Joe Tall]

if she knew Dave was a LAG, you're right

Look he's raisin all sorts of junk when it's folded to him as he should. She's lookin at KQ, the flop comes Q34 and Dave bets his A9s and folds to a c/r or turn bet and she starts thinking 'what if'. Then it happens again and again, Daves raisin, and she gets soft for a second, she looks at the button and says, 'fck this kid', and 3-bets AJs, or even 66 and she think Dave is holding AK, which she saw him cap eariler, and she floats on the flop to run at the turn, which she has seen Dave fold.

you write like elysium when you're high

But I try to put the commas back in after I read it and a period, caps, etc but I am high, you're right.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I'm going to puke because I don't eat beef or fast food. Or drink soda.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beef has absolutely nothing to do with White Castle. Now you can really barf.

[sfer]

Nope. It's been raised in front of me every time so I haven't gotten a chance to steal or do anything but fold for the two orbits I've been sitting. So I'm just some Asian guy raising UTG, which I guess to some people means I'm a LAG.

[bunky9590]

I like a smooth call the turn and check raise any non Ace river. Teach her to eff with me.

[steamboatin]

Man, that is amazing. Will ingest ilegal substances from unkown sources but won't eat white castles.

I dated a girl years ago that would do really nasty things with her mouth but wouldn't drink after me. I didn't understand that one either.

[sfer]

I like this a lot, if I can fold to a 3-bet, which I'm not sure I can against an unknown with a mountain of red chips in the center.

[sthief09]

also consider that people don't value bet enough. that means that if she bets the river she either probably has you beat or is bluffing. that's exactly when you don't want to raise someone.

[bunky9590]

The river check raise usually gets people to freeze up a bit more than the turn raise does. its likely NOT to get three bet very quickly.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this a lot, if I can fold to a 3-bet, which I'm not sure I can against an unknown with a mountain of red chips in the center.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the proper term would be metric f%&#ton of chips in the middle. FWIW, I don't fold to the three bet and pray she has QQ or the other KK.


I get that aggressive tricky image so Ive been three bet by some goofy stuff. Smooth calling the raise and check calling the river with KK just seems really really wrong.

[theghost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now I'm going to puke because I don't eat beef or fast food. Or drink soda.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beef has absolutely nothing to do with White Castle. Now you can really barf.

[/ QUOTE ]
White Castle burgers are closer to pate than they are to real hamburgers; once you come to terms with that they're very tasty.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


I dated a girl years ago that would do really nasty things with her mouth

[/ QUOTE ]

And you broke up with her why?

[Joe Tall]

Asian guy raising UTG, which I guess to some people means I'm a LAG

Yeah, a Rasin' Asian, no doubt.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

well what I'm saying is that if she bets the river, she's either folding to a raise, or she has Dave beat. there's no upside to raising once she bets the river. only bad things can happen

[EliteNinja]

[ QUOTE ]
Asian guy raising UTG, which I guess to some people means I'm a LAG

Yeah, a Rasin' Asian, no doubt.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think I could use this to my advantage at the casino (I'm Asian)?

If you're Asian, you're either a gambOOler or very against gambling. Therefore Asian poker players = LAG. w00t!

[tipperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a smooth call the turn and check raise any non Ace river. Teach her to eff with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It will indeed teach her. Specifically, it will teach her that you have no regard for your chips. This line guarantees that you will lose the most money if you're behind (because she'll call or re-raise your river raise) but will almost never net you additional chips if you're ahead (because she'll fold to your river check-raise if she's bluffing; you gain the same chips by check-calling a bluff).

[bunky9590]

She doesnt call the river with AJ or QQ? or KJs for that matter? Sure if she has JJ or AA were buggered, but Im not ready to put her on that yet. Check calling with KK on that river just seems awful weak.

Plus, the other thing about that river check raise, it will get you lots of free showdowns on the river out of position once they see you're capable of it.

Search the SpicyF posts, it really does work.

[tipperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
She doesnt call the river with AJ or QQ? or KJs for that matter? Sure if she has JJ or AA were buggered, but Im not ready to put her on that yet. Check calling with KK on that river just seems awful weak.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, she calls with QQ--probably. I can't put her on AJ or KJs at all, however. You're perceived as a tight player (this is the first pot you've played). You open-raise UTG, she 3-bets, and you cap. She's a good, experienced player. It's highly unlikely she plays AJ or KJ in that spot. If, for some reason she did, she'd certainly muck it on the flop, which totally misses her (9-high flop, remember). At that point (with AJ or KJ), she'd reasonably conclude that she's drawing to 3 outs (against AK, QQ, or KK) or runner-runner (against AA).

With AJ and KJ out of the picture, it's more likely you're behind than you're ahead. Check-calling the river may seem weak, but it feels prudent.

[Joe Tall]

Search the SpicyF posts, it really does work.

Yes, check-raising the river to save bets is a great concept. But, Greg, not here, not against her, you know who she is and she plays weak for the most part. However, when you know her,she thinks she can use this to out play a good player. She one of those rare ones who can know/play a good player but never pick out the bad.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[J.R.]

good sh!t (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=781406 &Forum=f4&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=300&Main=78140 6&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=2216&daterange=1& newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypr ev=#Post781406)

[sfer]

Yeah well. So the preflop action I raise UTG with KK, she 3-bets in MP, folded to me and I cap. It's the first hand played for both of us. It goes bet/call on a ragged flop. The turn is a J, I bet, she raises, I 3-bet, she thinks, frowns, nods, and folds.

I think 3-betting lets a lot of hands off easy and gets my ass capped when I'm behind. I kind of like checkraising the river, or stop n' going on the river, except that I can't fold an overpair to a river raise, nor do I particularly want to. I guess this is the trouble with unknowns.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess this is the trouble with unknowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, that's why I don't like when people bitch about others not giving reads. we spend so much time with no reads, that it's important to have a SOP in certain situations.

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
However, when you know her,she thinks she can use this to out play a good player. She one of those rare ones who can know/play a good player but never pick out the bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point Joey.

Thank you.