KQs- OESD and flush draw on the flop

[Hack]

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.


I flopped a [censored] monster...

Flop: (7.40 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (9.70 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13.70 BB

[Entity]

Everything other than the coldcall preflop looks fine.

[Hack]

It is not okay with position and stuff?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
It is not okay with position and stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]
Some will say yes, but I don't think you've got enough callers to be donating 2SB to a small pot against a UTG raise. There aren't many hands that you're happy to be up against here (preflop), and you won't take down a huge pot because of the number of people in the pot.

Rob

[Hack]

Hmm. SSH says it is okay to play KQs against a raise either in a loose or tight game(I assume cause of the flush potential). I was counting on BB calling cause he almost always does but would 4 players here be much better than 3?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm. SSH says it is okay to play KQs against a raise either in a loose or tight game(I assume cause of the flush potential). I was counting on BB calling cause he almost always does but would 4 players here be much better than 3?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just one of the situations where I (and a few others, IIRC) don't agree with SSH. I don't think it's bad, I just don't agree with it so much. I think I could be persuaded otherwise, but just reading the preflop SSH chart and having it say "coldcall with KQs" doesn't give me enough info to persuade me.

Rob

[Hack]

It doesn't say that with KQo, but I think Ed says to do it cause it's suited and with a raise u are getting better odds, maybe to see the flop and try and flop a flush draw?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't say that with KQo, but I think Ed says to do it cause it's suited and with a raise u are getting better odds, maybe to see the flop and try and flop a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]
Right -- but you're 9:1 to flop a flush draw, and with this few players, you're paying 3.2:1.

I selectively coldcall with KQs. I just think it's important to know why you're coldcalling in various situations, rather than just doing it.

Rob

[Hack]

I call to try and flop a 4-flush, or two pair, or trips, or an OESD.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I call to try and flop a 4-flush, or two pair, or trips, or an OESD.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes -- but what odds do you need to try to flop a hand like that? Are you getting such odds in a shorthanded pot against an EP raise? What range of hands do you put EP on that he'd raise here?

Rob

[Hack]

High pockets or AK.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
High pockets or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're a 3.3:1 dog against AK, and 4:1 dog against QQ, KK, and AA.

You're paying 2SB to enter a pot with few players with a likely dominated hand.

Rob

[Hack]

How would it change if he raised and he had 3 cold callers behind him. Would a call be good then?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
How would it change if he raised and he had 3 cold callers behind him. Would a call be good then?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'd like a coldcall there. Especially when the cold callers are the kind who like to spew chips postflop when you hit a hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You've definitely got some pair power with KQs, but in these situations (UTG raise) I prefer having lots of players so if I hit, I get paid off not only with preflop bets, but with tons of postflop bets.

Rob

[Malcom Reynolds]

Hmm. SSH says it is okay to play KQs against a raise either in a loose or tight game(I assume cause of the flush potential).

The chart does say that, but I believe in the commentary before or after the charts, he has the caveat that the preflop raiser has to raise with a wide range of hands to call will KQs or AJs.

[Hack]

Well Im not looking to hit a pair. It's an easily dominated hand by KK or QQ from UTG. I'm lookin for OESD or flush draw,. etc. Or two pair, maybe.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Well Im not looking to hit a pair. It's an easily dominated hand by KK or QQ from UTG. I'm lookin for OESD or flush draw,. etc. Or two pair, maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're like 49:1 to hit two pair. 9:1 for a flush draw. I forget the OESD odds but they ain't pretty either.

That's why I fold this here.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
he has the caveat that the preflop raiser has to raise with a wide range of hands to call will KQs or AJs.

[/ QUOTE ]
I need to reread that. Everyone tells me I'm too tight when I fold rather than coldcalling with KQs, but I think I like folding better most of the time.

Rob