Flush draw hand against a LAG.

[Hack]

Did I pump my flush draw correctly for value?

Please help me analyze my play on this hand, beacuse I think I played badly on parts of it.

Thank you,
Hack


PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

I normally muck this but UTG+1 is kinda LAGgish(81/17 from stats I have), so I thought I would play this suited connector 5-handed. I knew BB would likely call because he defends his blind rigorously.

Flop: (10 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.


I check-raised the flop because I knew he'd bet and then I could trap most of the field for another bet. Was this good?

Turn: (13 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

No diamond. I whiffed the turn. I check-call. Is this fine?

River: (17 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Bingo! I check-raise him on the river. I knew he'd bet so I wanted to trap the remaining players again.

Thoughts?

Final Pot: 23 BB

[Shillx]

PF call is real thin. Do it if you are confident that you can outplay these people and they will lose lots of bets if you make your hand.

I would just bet the turn. It gives your hand away when you c/c. People don't know you just have a flush draw when you cap the flop. You normally will not get raised when you bet the turn becuase they will fear a big hand (like a set).

Brad

Sweet...I posted before the edit. Pretty much disregard everything I said...

[Hack]

Huh? Edit? I don't understand. Disregard your post?

I know it was kinda thin but I have no problem getting away from the hand. If I hadn't flopped two pair, OESD, or flush draw, I would have check folded the flop. Is it okay to make calls like this if I have the discipline to get away from trouble?

I don't really understand what you mean when you say outplay. I played this draw badly I guess but I wanted to maximize the money in the pot. Looking at it now I probably should have bet the turn. Do I bet the river as well, or was check-raise there good?

[sin808]

not sure about the pf call..flop good. turn is fine, you might make an argument for betting or c/r, but IIRC you need 4 callers to make that a break even play ev wise (math people correct me?). river good.

[Hack]

Yeah, about the pf, like I told schill- if I hadn't flopped two pair, trips, OESD, or flush draw, I would have check-folded the flop. I just like seeing flops with suited connectors, I don't know if it's a weakness, because my VP$IP is still reasonably tight.

[Shillx]

You played it pretty well. Flop and river are perfect. Check/calling the turn against a crazy LAG is okay. Usually when you cap the flop on the draw, you should bet the turn.

[Hack]

And if raised on the turn just call? I kinda like that line because then I can check the river to him like I did and he can't put me on the FD like you said. Then he can bet and I can raise him, trapping the guy in between again.

Are a lot of these decisions like whether to bet the turn or to check-call marginal decisions in your opinion? Like it won't matter over the long run which I do in this situation?

[Shillx]

Yeah just call the turn if raised.

The reason you do it is because when you cap the flop and check/call the turn, everyone and their mother knows what you have (a flush draw). So when you do check/call the turn, you should bet the river if you end up making the flush. By betting the turn, you can check/raise the river when the flush hits.

[Hack]

I understand now shill. Thanks.

So I do what you said and if a diamond doesn't come on the river I check-fold, knowing that I bet the flop correctly for value. Flush draws should only be capped on the flop for value right? Or would a cap have been good on the turn as well(I'm not sure because the turn bet is twice as much), and we lost a player on the flop).

[mr pink]

seeing flops w/ suited connectors is fine, but you wanna have enough people in the hand with you so that you get paid off on the occasions when you make a big hand.

[Hack]

I think 5 people is enough. BB was gonna call the raise, and so were the two other limpers.

[Aaron W.]

I think you played the turn well. Drawing to a flush on the river is about 4:1, meaning you need 4 *other* players to make a check-raise good value. And in fact, you're just a hair short as it's really 9:37. (You don't have any overcards to give you a bonus out or two.)

Betting out on the turn would be bad. You're behind and you want to see the river card as cheaply as possible. The field is too big to take it down now, plus the action indicates you're likely going to see a showdown, and also you can't clean up any outs (your pair outs are going to lose anyway, and any hand that might share an out with you aren't folding -- I'm thinking of a two pair hand like KT and the Kd comes on the river). I also got lost by Shillx's first post, so I'll address what he wrote *before* the extra edit comment. When you cap the flop and check right away, you don't tell everyone that you have a flush draw. Some players do this with monsters looking to check-raise the field again on the turn. Plus, even if they do sniff you out for a flush draw and to the right thing (bet into you on the turn), you're still doing better than if you bet and get raised (or it could be even better and you've scared everyone into giving you a free card). I don't think that enough people see a flop check-raise-cap as a pot building equity play for a flush draw that it's a transparent move.

(Besides, notice that on this hand LAGgy UTG+1 bet out even though you were clearly on a flush draw.)

[Aaron W.]

The magic number for suited anything is 8:1. You were getting 7.5:1.5 = 5:1 right away, closer to 6:1 with your read on BB, and a suited connector is far better than suited anything. Your call is fine.

[Hack]

Thanks. Why is the number 8:1 out of curiosity? Does that mean I need 8:1 pot odds to call preflop?

[Hack]

Thanks. Why is the number 8:1 out of curiosity? Does that mean I need 8:1 pot+implied(BB will almost surely call) odds to call preflop?

Sorry for the double post. Is the flop check-raise and river check-raise ok?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. Why is the number 8:1 out of curiosity? Does that mean I need 8:1 pot+implied(BB will almost surely call) odds to call preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm basing this on the collective experience of others. I directly address the question of "any two suited" to the small stakes people who have climbed up through the micro limits in this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=110 1738&amp;fpart=&amp;PHPSESSID=).

I think everything else in the hand is fine.

[Hack]

Gotcha, thanks.