A Sunday afternoon poll question

[zuluking]

Typical online micro game with the usual suspects.

You're dealt 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB. 5 limpers and you knock.

Flop is 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

What do you do?

[Cardzy]

I check with the intention of check-raising the flop to hopefully knock out a player or two and protect my hand.

[zuluking]

Okay. But what if the next to act bets out and there are 3 callers?

[Cardzy]

Hmm, I think the best move at that point would be to fold. Someone could easily have a 9 with better kicker, and it's guaranteed most are on a draw, either straight or flush and yours is only a gut shot and a weak gut shot at that as a spade makes a possible flush for someone else. Your top pair is very weak and vulnerable and your kicker sucks crap. You most likely have the worst draw at the table. Save your money.

But if it was one of the last 2 in the orbit to act that bet out I definitely would have check-raised that flop. If 3 bet I would call and check/fold turn unimproved. If just called I would bet out on turn. If raised and I had not improved I might call depending on pot odds at that point, but most likely it would turn into a fold real fast.

This is an ugly marginal hand that caught top pair. If a late position acted I think a check-raise is in order to see where you stand on the flop. But with aggression coming back at you or it staying a multi-way pot the only reason to stay in would be pot odds. Test the water, see where you stand, get the hell out if it doesn't look favorable.

Just my opinion.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I think the best move at that point would be to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
With a gutshot and top pair, folding here would be bad getting 9:1.

Rob

[zuluking]

Cardzy,

I think making decisions on a hand like this is where alot of money is made/lost in LLHE. The poll, as of now, is split about 50/50.

While I don't agree with everything you said, I applaud you for discussing this "boring" hand. I wish alot more 2+2ers would discuss more borderline hands instead of, "How many more bets could I have made with my Quads." type posts. I think we'd all make more money in the long run.

[milesdyson]

I check for "information." With no reads, I'll check raise if I can face 2 or 3 of these limpers with 2 cold on the flop. I'll check fold if it's 2 back to me.

I'm pretty surprised it's split 50/50.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Cardzy,

I think making decisions on a hand like this is where alot of money is made/lost in LLHE. The poll, as of now, is split about 50/50.

While I don't agree with everything you said, I applaud you for discussing this "boring" hand. I wish alot more 2+2ers would discuss more borderline hands instead of, "How many more bets could I have made with my Quads." type posts. I think we'd all make more money in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, unfortunately whenever I post "boring" hands such as this I get about 2 responses. I've posted a few hands where I have overcards for instance and facing a lead and a caller or 2 and then stop it as say, "what's my plan". Sure, usually 1 or 2 people give kind of vague responses, usually not really committing to anything and then it goes away.

The thing about these types of hands is that they're tricky, and people know that they are tricky. They are also frustrating and I don't think enough people here are willing to go out on a limb when talking about tricky/frustrating situations. Its natural (unfortunately) to want to be pereived as right or wrong on a particular point and with these tricky spots there's a lot of room for disagreement and right/wrong is hard to define.

Its much more satisfying to just be able to tell a newb to cap his flush draw on the flop against 5 opponents because you KNOW you're right. I'm guilty of this myself to be honest.

As for this hand I think you check and call, decide how to play the turn based on what it is. Your hand is weak, there are a TON of cards that suck for you on the turn, you don't want to fold. I try to peel one off cheaply here. TP is not a license to throw in unlimited bets and raises on the flop to protect your hand. Not all TP's are created equal and this one relatively sucks.

[btspider]

i check and play it like a middle pair. the gutshot is nice, but your 6's are weaker as a result. ditto with the two-tone flop.

[Cardzy]

You know, now that you mention that, I believe you are correct. My thinking was too much on the check-raise or fold attitude. I agree I think a call on the flop is the right move. And then see what happens on turn.

[Cardzy]

I totally agree with you Zulu, that these are the types of hands that either cost us the most money or make us the most in the long run. It's the mediocre hands that we end up getting involved in all the time. That is exactly the reason I do get into conversations about these types of hands because I feel there is the most to be learned from on these.

[ccartman2]

I'm no expert, but I'd check/call this. I don't think many hands are going to go away with a bet here. I like these posts much better then the normal ones, just hard to give good input on them.

[Shillx]

Checking intending to see what happens. Call/raise/fold are all possibilities. Betting doesn't really do much for you IMO. Lots of people play hands like T9s and JTs, and they aren't going anywhere.

Brad

[ddss6_99]

I check. I think that this is a very vulnerable hand for a few reasons. First, although you have top pair, the kicker leaves much to be desired. Second, your gutshot is restriced even further because if the 7 of spades came out you may be victim to a flush. Even if you hit your straight, you wern't drawing to the nuts as a J10 would now beat you. Not to mention the 5 overcards that could come down and make somebodys hand. But that aside, assume your behind to something like Q9 or an over pair off the flop. You would only have approx 4 outs (One 9, sometimes the trip nines will be good, but not if facing Q9 etc, 1.5 7's assuming that 50% of the time your straight will take it down and the other 50% you'll be against a higher straight or a flush, and 1.5 6's assuming that 50% of the time someone has a 7 for the straight and 50% of the time they don't.) A check also allows an oppertunity for your odd's to improve. It's tough because you're in EP and there's always a chance that you'll be forced to cold call if you want to continue. I doubt anybody who's behind, but has a decent redraw to a better hand than yours would leave the pot. I just think it's too shakey a hand to bet out with from EP the chances of it being raised after you act plus the amount of cards that could beat you make me hesitant. I'm trying to apply things I've been reading in SSHE so correct me if my logic is flawed.

[Shillx]

It is pretty interesting that so many are saying to bet. I'm wondering what the reasoning behind it is...

Shill

[DMBFan23]

I don't like a bet for the following reasons:

1) a raise could force you off the best hand, as someone raises their flush draw or OESD.

2) this flop is very conducive to getting calls (flush and straight draws are there, and there is a higher chance of someone having two overcards as a virtue of the paintless flop), so as a semibluff your bet is unlikely to work.

3) if you bet out and get 3 calls, and whiff on the turn, then you have to just check fold. if you check and raise an LP bet, you're much more in control of the hand versus any (few) remaining opponents. if you check and call, it sets up a sweet check raise opportunity if you improve.


However, I'm not folding for one bet by any means, my hand is too good for that. I'd fold for two though. (that's not based off of any detailed bayesian analysis or anything, just my instinct.)

[DocMartin]

A lot of people say bet but none have said why so I will take a stab at it. I bet this.

1)I am working on being more aggressive, especially on the flop.
2) For information, you may have the best hand at the moment but it is easy to release to a raise and some callers
3) Everyone may fold. People know you have hit something when you bet a crap flop from the big blind
4) To set up a bet for the turn. You might lose a few customers with your flop bet and most of those who called with overcards will let this hand go if it doesnt hit them on the turn

This is just the flop bet though, the turn is another story depending on the response to the flop bet.