Requisite flop bet after PF raise?

[Guy F]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Make other people react, not act. Normal aggressive philosophy, yes? Well, the sort of situation illustrated by the hand below comes up fairly often. So often that it's taking bites out of my stacks here and there in almost every SnG I'm in ($5 - $20), and it's starting to annoy me. Either too many people have figured out that I'll take a stab at any pot I opened for a raise and will just play back at me (seems unlikely given the sheer number of opponents), or I'm just getting unlucky more often lately, or maybe - just maybe /images/graemlins/wink.gif - I'm putting myself in tricky situations too often and should back off a bit. Which, of course, is why I'm looking for opinions here.

So the question is: If you opened for a standard raise at an average table with no rocks, maniacs, or other extreme types, should you always take a shot at the pot if the flop isn't obviously scary?

This hand isn't a perfect illustration because a) I didn't open, and b) I'm not last to act. I've felt that any sign of weakness after a preflop raise is an open invitation to take the pot away, though. But is that necessarily true? Finding the line between appropriately aggressive and just being foolhardy is tricky. Even when I'm last to act and it's checked to me, I'll bet with nothing but high cards and often get called by someone with middle or bottom pair and have to throw in the towel unless I improve on the turn. A bite out of my stack here, another bite there, and unless I can make a real hand soon I'm starting to get weak, chip-wise.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t2755)
Button (t1985)
SB (t2190)
BB (t1455)
UTG (t1385)
Hero (t3390)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t100, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t300, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls t200.

Flop: (t1050) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t600</font>, UTG folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1850

[MrMon]

If you take a stab at it EVERY time, yeah, they're gonna figure it out. Be selective. If you've been caught bluffing, be careful doing it again until you get caught with an actual hand.

The other problem with the hand you just posted is, you bet 200 into a 1050 pot. That will scare no one, and pretty much telegraphs a weak hand. To be successful, you've got to bet like you had you caught TPTK (holding A9o, say), or have a good pocket pair (TT). Betting less than your initial bet is a sure way to bleed chips. But a really good thing to do if holding AA!

[rjb03]

Would you have bet more if you actually hit the flop? I assume the answer is yes. You bet less on the flop than you did preflop with a flop that doesn't warrant that action. In fact, not many do if any at all. It looks kind of obvious you didn't hit a damn piece of the flop. What raising hands hit that flop? After an UTG limp you may want to stay away from raising KQs UTG+1. It's not a great hand and you're pretty much guaranteed to see a flop with that bet. Also, I disagree you should bet the flop like that even with AA unless you set up with no good draws and fear everyone will stop giving you action or you know some hyperaggressive player will raise with position.

[Irieguy]

I would say that you played this hand recklessly. It seems like your KQh looked so pretty that you essentially ignored the fact that UTG was limping in with a short stack, and you had two players behind you.

I think limping is a better way to start this hand. That way you can keep position on the UTG limper and see what the LP players do before deciding on your line. I've also folded that hand under similar circumstances plenty of times and don't lose any sleep because of those plays.

When the flop misses you and you're out of position in a 3-way pot, a post-oak bluff is probably the worst of all your options. Just realize that you screwed the pooch on this one preflop and ended up in a tough post-flop situation. Check it down and fold to any heat.

To answer your more general question, I would say that I never bet the flop ONLY because I raised preflop. You need a lot better reason than that. A preflop raise gives you betting impetus, which is good, but the best use of that impetus is often to get a free card or smooth-call and then lead if a good bluffing opportunity has materialized.

With a betting habit of always raising with broadway cards and then always betting a raggedy flop, you make yourself an easy mark for any semi-conscious opponent... and if you ever try to play against a skilled opponent like that, you will lose 3/4 of your stack before you ever see a showdown.

Irieguy

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]

With a betting habit of always raising with broadway cards and then always betting a raggedy flop, you make yourself an easy mark for any semi-conscious opponent...
Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

My 2 cents: if you check it through on the flop, and the turn (raggy)gets checked around to you again, NOW you have reason to believe you can sucessfully purchase the pot.

90% of low-level players check to the raiser whether they hit or miss the flop. Far too often, your flop bet will be called when you dont want to be (just 2 overs, no draws).

[Guy F]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like your KQh looked so pretty that you essentially ignored the fact that UTG was limping in with a short stack, and you had two players behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

HA! Guilty as charged, and exactly why it's way better to get other views than stay in one's own relativistic world. I'd been getting crummy cards for days, so suited face cards looked like solid gold at the time.

Thanks to all for the good reality check. It's also good to know that checking a nothing flop doesn't make me a girly man. (Not that there's anything wrong with that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[ChrisV]

Preflop, this hand is not strong enough to raise from this position against an utg limper. You are quite deep stacked so I would limp.

On the flop, NO you don't have to take a stab. You are in less than ideal position and have a hopeless hand. Also betting that amount is begging to have the pot taken off you. If you want to bet, you have to bet the amount you'd bet with a real hand. The fact that you don't want to do that should alert you that you shouldn't be betting at all.

[zephyr]

Brilliant post Irieguy,

[ QUOTE ]
A preflop raise gives you betting impetus

[/ QUOTE ]

I had to look impetus up. Once I did, though, I think it's a wonderful way to describe it.

Zephyr

[Guy F]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to bet, you have to bet the amount you'd bet with a real hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the crux of the issue. Regardless of whether you've got position on the opponents, it seems awfully weak to simply give up when the flop misses you. "Well old chap it seems you have the best of me, please help yourself to the pot." But it also seems unwise to bet as big as if you got an ideal flop (which in many cases is just too obviously not the case). So my thinking has been to make a somewhat defensive bet to see if anyone shows any real strength and give the weaker hands a reason to not see any more cards. If there's any strength shown, I'm outta there.

I'm sure that better players will spot the defensive bet for what it is and play back (hey I've done that myself at times), but most people at the buyins I play aren't that clever. Perhaps I should only do this heads up? I'm just not comfortable meekly giving up on any flop that misses me. Does this make sense?

[ChrisV]

I don't buy that most players, even at the lower levels, are so retarded that they don't notice that you're betting 200 into a pot of 1050, an amount LESS than the amount you raised preflop. That doesnt merely scream weakness, it broadcasts it on a state-of-the-art PA system.

Put yourself in the button's shoes - when it checks to you on the flop, are you going to want to seriously attack this pot with something like AJ? He might put in a token steal attempt, but then you can be the one capitalising on obvious weakness and checkraise him allin.

I can't see a 200 bet scaring away much at all, not even a hand like AQ.

There are two points about you not wanting to give up after the flop. The first is that this is not limit. You can't win every pot just through unbridled aggression. By all means take a stab if you think they will fold. When the pot is so large that any decent size bet will take a nasty chunk out of your stack, you have two opponents and the board is both unlikely to scare them and awful for you, it's time to cut your losses.

Which brings me to point 2. If you don't like being in the situation of having to give up on the flop because your hand isn't good enough, then don't raise preflop with hands that often won't be good enough on the flop.

[syka16]

[ QUOTE ]

If you don't like being in the situation of having to give up on the flop because your hand isn't good enough, then don't raise preflop with hands that often won't be good enough on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice point. Here's a little ABC poker that I use when I'm raising KQ AJish level IV with a big stack. Bet 1/2 the pot. I'm an armchair statistician but I think it's about even EV when you miss because it's enough to steal the pot about 1/2 the time. If you pot it, you take away your edge as a big stack if the caller has a hand and I think you only get a fold about 60%.

Obviously it depends on my reads and board but it's pretty simple when multitabling and you avoid a lot of guess work. Maybe I've got it wrong let me know.

[Guy F]

Thanks for the good contrary views - that's just the sort of thinking I was looking for. With the physical isolation of online play it's just too easy to start thinking I'm always right. That's why posting here is so valuable - there's an ample supply of people with darts to deflate silly ideas! I've been getting increasingly aggressive in my play the last month or so, and it's been a good learning experience because it's so different from my non-poker personality. I may have overshot the mark without noticing. Thanks again.

[Strollen]

A couple of comments.

First the KQs isn't good enough to raise is really irrelevant. Given this flop KQs is better than AKs, because there is a runner runner to the nuts straight.

For big pots I think 1/2 to 2/3 works well, so 600 in this situation, or double your PF raise. I tend to bet slightly higher when bluffing than if I actually hit the flop but not a lot different. The only problem is that with betting 1/2 the pot you are giving the diamond flush correct odds to continue drawing.

Now how often you should do this, is a question that I haven't learned yet. I suspect I do it too much alo.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
First the KQs isn't good enough to raise is really irrelevant. Given this flop KQs is better than AKs, because there is a runner runner to the nuts straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, WHAT? AKs is better because it enables you to go passive and win the showdown.

Also, even if this flop were QQQ, it would be irrelevant to the relative raising merits of KQs and AKs.

[ QUOTE ]
For big pots I think 1/2 to 2/3 works well, so 600 in this situation, or double your PF raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This leaves Hero with 555 chips, so there's no way he's folding if raised, but I suppose you could argue that betting 600 looks more like a made hand.

[ QUOTE ]
The only problem is that with betting 1/2 the pot you are giving the diamond flush correct odds to continue drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

A flush draw plus A or K overcard is priced in even if Hero goes allin. The amount Hero bets is irrelevant to the flush draw because if he's facing a made hand he'll be in for the rest on the turn no matter what.

[Strollen]

Chris go back and read the hand.
[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter

CO (t2755)
Button (t1985)
SB (t2190)
BB (t1455)
UTG (t1385)
Hero (t3390)


[/ QUOTE ]

Hero bets 300 leaving him 3090
A raise of 600 is less than &lt;20% of his stack and will leave in him with 2490 chips (and close to the chip leaders)
not the 555 that you think he has.

Losing 900 chips from a stack of 3400 is a big blow but hardly the end of the tourney.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, even if this flop were QQQ, it would be irrelevant to the relative raising merits of KQs and AKs.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but that isn't the question Guy asked, which I think he framed very well.

There is a lot of preflop discussion/debate including is KQ good enough to raise.

But precious little about the more important post flop. Virtually, every tourney, my raise with big hand like AK, AQ, or KQ, misses the flop.

I can't believe that winning poker players routinely say "oh well missed the flop, I'll check fold now."

Nobody has menition your opponents short stack, with 1100 chips I doubt he will call without either a decent PP/trips, or a nuts flush.

This is a situation where having an AK would be very helpful because a bet to put him all-in if he calls on a flush draw and misses would be great.

[ChrisV]

Whoops. First response I made on this thread I'd read the hands correctly, but when I reread it today for some reason I thought Hero had BB's stack. Forget anything I said about the bet size.

I wouldn't say winning players "routinely" check fold missed flops, although it's certainly a play you should make sometimes on NL. This hand is hardly routine, though. You have king high, no draws, versus two opponents, in a pot very large relative to the size of their stacks. That isn't a routine situation for me after I raise preflop.