Should this strategy be revised for the ultra LAG games of 6max?

[balkii]

party 5/10 6max

I raise KQo UTG. Get 3-bet by the SB. heads up to the flop

Flop is K53

bet, call

turn is 4

bet, call

river is A

check bet call.

I know this call-all-bets-and-bet-when-checked-to is the typical line in a spot like this, but against these ultra bad players who frequent the 6max games is this giving up too much to not put more action in?

[easypete]

I don't know... just had the same thing happen.

I open raise from UTG w/ KK w/ 2 cold callers... blinds fold.

Flop Q93 rainbow.

I bet, 1 call (loose passive aggressive (likes to c/r).

Turn blank... bet call.

River Ace...

check, bet, call.

He had J9o...

I figured if he had an Ace i would have gotten raised here. If he didn't he would fold.. but may bluff here.

So maximize wins... minimize losses.

[naphand]

This is not the same, in the original post Hero has position and is calling not making the betting.

[balkii]

as naphand suggested, this hand is not very similar to mine. also, bet the river.


So maximize wins... minimize losses.

that is actually quite the opposite of what will happen when you check the river. Unless you know the guy is prone to etting more hands than he will call with.

reread TOP, "Heads up on the End"

[LockForward]

I'd raise this flop. I think calling is too weak/tight.

[pfkaok]

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I'd raise this flop. I think calling is too weak/tight.

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Disagree... calling, then folding the turn would be weak/tight, but I think calling here is a good play. If you're up against somebody who is capable of bluffing all the way thru the hand here when he's got 0-3 outs, why not let him? I think even moreso if he's a player who'll will turn trickier when you raise on the flop. A lot of these agro players, if they've got nothing will just call when you raise, then they'll either check/fold, or CRbluff on the turn. Usually you have to call down b/c of this, but they'll also play this way if they've got a monster, so calling down is only a margainal (albeit +EV IMO) play.

I sometimes wonder if I'm losing too much EV by doing this, but then I'll see them bet, bet, then check/call the river with J10, or Q9, or something, b/c they gotta keep you honest. Of course you might lose a little if they've got something like K10, or K9, but even in this spot if that's what they had, then they'd usually bet the river, and you can raise, except that in this spot the A was an unlucky card for you.

I may be wrong, but I figure these spots are classic TOP, inducing bluffs from LAG players who are already bluffing more than is optimal.

[ALL1N]

Since the turn puts a wheel draw out for Ax, I would raise it. Oh, and calling the flop is good.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
Since the turn puts a wheel draw out for Ax, I would raise it. Oh, and raising the flop would be a mistake here a lot of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is a good point, i actually missed it at first, but since he's likely got 7+ outs a raise here is probably necessary as you'll likely to get called.

[LockForward]

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Disagree... calling, then folding the turn would be weak/tight, but I think calling here is a good play. If you're up against somebody who is capable of bluffing all the way thru the hand here when he's got 0-3 outs, why not let him? I think even moreso if he's a player who'll will turn trickier when you raise on the flop.


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I think with no reads you need to be raising the flop, or calling with the intention of raising the turn. If you have a read that the player is over aggro and capable of bluffing the flop, turn and either bluffing or check calling the river most of the time, but might fold on the turn to a flop raise, calling down is fine.

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of these agro players, if they've got nothing will just call when you raise, then they'll either check/fold, or CRbluff on the turn. Usually you have to call down b/c of this, but they'll also play this way if they've got a monster, so calling down is only a margainal (albeit +EV IMO) play.

I sometimes wonder if I'm losing too much EV by doing this, but then I'll see them bet, bet, then check/call the river with J10, or Q9, or something, b/c they gotta keep you honest. Of course you might lose a little if they've got something like K10, or K9, but even in this spot if that's what they had, then they'd usually bet the river, and you can raise, except that in this spot the A was an unlucky card for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you expecting SB to 3 bet you with preflop? I don't like going passive because the SB might be tricky post-flop. With a read that the SB is very tricky post-flop, calling down is fine.

[Schneids]

Against better players I use this line most of the time since they're going to probably keep betting JJ-type hands but might be capable of laying down to my raise and follow through. Also against 2+2 type opponents it might be worth it calling down with intentions of raising any non-ace river.

Against worse players or very dumb-aggro players I prefer raising the flop and if 3-bet then calling down.

[helpmeout]

I'd raise the turn on that board, its starting to get scary.

I normally play the same and raise the river if no Ace hits.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
Against worse players or very dumb-aggro players I prefer raising the flop and if 3-bet then calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you riase, they call, and then on the turn you get CR'ed, do you always call down vs. the average bad/agro player? It seems like you have to with TP vs. a LAG, but to me it just seems like you put yourself in a tough spot when this person will always call flop then CR the turn when they have you beat, and will sometimes do it as a bluff... for me it seems like many LAGs have an intuitive sense for how to make these plays at a close to optimal frequency. SO i feel like I'm not allowing them to make the mistakes that they are most prone to make.

Also, if they 3-bet, then check, do bet turn and call if they CR you, then call river? I know that this kind of stuff is pretty player-dependant, but I"M just talking vs. a random, aggro 6max player. Say 45-60VPIP, 20-25 PFR, and 2-3 AF on each street, as this seems to be pretty typical stats for the agro types.