AQs - Too aggressive in a large pot?

[Kluddeludde]

Here's a hand I played earlier today. Button in this hand is very loose preflop and quite aggressive. I don't think he's aggressive enough to bet the flop in this hand without at least something. I think his most likely holding here was a middle pair (a ten, four, pocket, etc), but there is some chance that he was betting a draw as well. Two of the other players behind me are TAGs and one of them seems to be very loose, albeit over a small sample size. Obviously, it's my flop play I'm concerned about, but comment on the rest of the streets as well.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (10 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Kludde

[wuarhg]

I like it. Too bad the 5/10 games aren't always like this /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a hand I played earlier today. Button in this hand is very loose preflop and quite aggressive. I don't think he's aggressive enough to bet the flop in this hand without at least something. I think his most likely holding here was a middle pair (a ten, four, pocket, etc), but there is some chance that he was betting a draw as well. Two of the other players behind me are TAGs and one of them seems to be very loose, albeit over a small sample size. Obviously, it's my flop play I'm concerned about, but comment on the rest of the streets as well.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (10 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Kludde

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it as well.

Thanks for posting this hand. I learned something from it.

Usually, I bet out on the flop with hands like this, and at first, I thought the check-raise may have been a little bold. However, when I analyze the hand a little further, it looks like an excellent play.

With the flop, it appears that you have 7.5 outs (6 overcards plust the backdoor flush draw). Plus, your hand may have the slight chance of still being the best hand, at least between you and the button.

Even with 7 outs, the odds of improving your hand are 6 to 1. When the button bets, there is 13 small bets in the pot. Your raise (2 bets) is still giving you sligtly better than the break-even 6 to 1 odds. (Maybe some of the more experienced players can correct me here, but isn't this what 'pot equity' is all about .... ?) Furthermore, your raise may even win the hand right there.

The above analysis assumes that the button isn't going to reraise you. But even if he does, this tells you to slow down if you don't improve on the turn.

Anyway, you pretty much have bet out on the turn now. Maybe he'll even fold right then.

The river is a clear value bet.

Well done.

Adam

[chesspain]

I don't like your checkraise. You said that for the Button to bet he'ld likely have to have a piece of the board, meaning he's unlikely to fold later on (unless it's obvious that you've improved)--yet you checkraise to drive everyone else out on this relatively drawless board when it is unlikely that any card which helps you is going to help anyone overtake you. Indeed, I don't think anyone is folding A3/A4, and I doubt anyone limped with Q3/Q4. Consequently, I think you just made it more expensive for yourself to chase your overcard outs.

In conclusion, I would either have bet the flop, or I would have called after the Button bet.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like your checkraise. You said that for the Button to bet he'ld likely have to have a piece of the board, meaning he's unlikely to fold later on (unless it's obvious that you've improved)--yet you checkraise to drive everyone else out on this relatively drawless board when it is unlikely that any card which helps you is going to help anyone overtake you. Indeed, I don't think anyone is folding A3/A4, and I doubt anyone limped with Q3/Q4. Consequently, I think you just made it more expensive for yourself to chase your overcard outs.

In conclusion, I would either have bet the flop, or I would have called after the Button bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


Great points, chesspain.

Hmmm... now I'm wondering, if the way I usually play these hands is correct.... that is, bet out on the flop (??)

I wonder, though, if the checkraise chases out any hands with a "4" in them, which would have made trips on the turn. (??)

Adam

[slydeni]

Awesome Hand! Lotsa choices...lotsa juicy stuff!
I like your chk raise a lot - mainly for the reasons that adamstewart outlined (the pot odds are giving you at least 6:1 on the chk raise). He probably has a10, or good pair - maybe JJ, but prolly 99 or something of that flavor.

I dont like the Turn Bet. he could very well have Ace-4 suited or something. He did call your chk raise so he prolly has something (based on your opinion of him earlier), and it could be a 4. I would like to see this hand to showdown. If you get raised on the turn, yer beat and still may have to call. If you chk call here...you can either see his strnegth and get a free river...or call one bet and get good odds on it to hit on river.

Sometimes I think it is okay to slow down. This is one of those times.

be well...
sly

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like the Turn Bet. he could very well have Ace-4 suited or something ... and it could be a 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why he must bet the turn. If he checks, the Button automatically bets because Hero has shown weakness. Then, Here is scewed because he has no idea where he stands.

This is not to mention the fact the the Hero could win the pot right there with his bet.

Bet the turn, fold to a raise.

[ QUOTE ]
If you get raised on the turn, yer beat and still may have to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. No you don't.

[ QUOTE ]
If you chk call here...you can either see his strnegth and get a free river...

[/ QUOTE ]

As discussed above, this is the wrong way to think. I actually have no idea how you think Hero is going to get a "free river" here.

Just my thoughts ...

Adam

[Kluddeludde]

I've given this some thought and I think there are both pros and cons to this play. Chesspain made a good point about the board being drawless and it is thus much more likely for button to have a real hand (the only reasonable drawing hand would be 56). However, I have two tight players behind and I could see both of them limp in preflop and then fold on the flop against a raise with A3/A4. I also have a backdoor flush draw with additional outs. Another downside to this play, though, is that one of the players behind was really, really loose. He wouldn't fold A3/A4, nor any pocket pair.

I'm open for some more discussion on this, but I am leaning towards not-so-good, though not horribly bad.

Anyway, button held 99 (good read, slydeni /images/graemlins/wink.gif) and MHIG.

Kludde

[TripleH68]

Some thoughts...

-This seems to be a question of pot odds vs. real odds. Assuming button is ahead of you in this hand and only the button will call your check-raise...you are getting close to exact pot odds for the turn card. Around 7:1 including the backdoor flush draw and a discount for button holding a hand like QT or 33, 44. Following up with a turn bet cuts down your real odds. On the flop you are investing 1BB to win 7BB. When you follow up with a turn bet(assuming button will call) you are investing 2BB to win 8BB, or 4:1. This makes the play less attractive.

-If MP3 holds a hand like 54 or A4 he still has odds to call your check-raise, assuming button does not raise. MP3 invests 1BB to win 8BB and is drawing about 8.4:1 to hit trips or two pair. A consideration would be "What hand would Hero check-raise with here?" I might guess your preflop raise is for value, but surely you would not be check-raising a set on the flop in this manner.

Just some thoughts. What say you?

[pstripling]

I like your flop play and think it is your only chance, short of a miracle, to win. Leading into 6 players with overcards and backdoor flush with a big pot is throwing money away too often. You may have had the best hand the whole way, but nice catch on the river. What would be the play be on the turn IF someone cold called in between you and the button? Check fold (if unimproved and no diamond), or do you lead again?

[krishanleong]

Chess, the reasons to cr the flop also have to do with getting rid of people that would have redraws if you hit on the turn. Assume the Q came on the turn and the 4 on the river. You might be glad you got rid of KJ, J9, Ac3c, Ac4c. I don't understand this stuff that well. But whenever I try to think if there are any hands I would want out if I hit on the turn, I can almost always find some. Also I think a good player, (tosh?) once said this is his default play with AK against a large field when he misses. Leading out sucks. If you can isolate a LP better, you are in the best shape you can be with no pair. I don't play 5/10 full but I think folding A3 or A4 in this spot for two cold shouldn't be too uncommon.

Krishan