KJ is a terrible starting hand

[Bill Smith]

It is much more likely that I am just a bad player.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Turn: (11 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

River: (14 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $11.5 (All-In)</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17.45 BB

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Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.70 BB

[Popinjay]

Hand 1 fold the turn, 9T just got there and you are probably already beat by the BB on the flop. Hand 2 good fold.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 fold the turn, 9T just got there and you are probably already beat by the BB on the flop. Hand 2 good fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding the turn in hand 1 would be bad. Its doubtful BB has a draw as he is capping out of posistion. It takes a LAG to do that with an OESD. If hero is behind to two pair he has lots of outs. And since its BB it could be a crazy two pair, not even Jacks up. Tho it could be the set, but I also think you are ahead here a decent amount of the time. Calling down is standard IMO

[imitation]

KJo and KJs are my biggest losers and I mean massively big losers over 22k hands.

[Popinjay]

MP is also in the hand. If it were HU on the turn, the pot would be smaller and a read comes into play on whether you call down or not.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
MP is also in the hand. If it were HU on the turn, the pot would be smaller and a read comes into play on whether you call down or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but MP is almost out of money and just along for the ride in this hand.

[Popinjay]

Doesn't seem to make a difference on the turn because there is still no sidepot yet, unless you think MP has something completely wacky like 22.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
unless you think MP has something completely wacky like 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what Im thinking. If he had a real hand he would be thoriwng whats left of his chips in. Hes just calling down hoping his A hits, or everyone is bluffing and his 22 is good.

[Popinjay]

Well in that case it seems like a close call or fold, I prefer fold here.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Well in that case it seems like a close call or fold, I prefer fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are getting 12-1 likely 13-1 as MP will prolyl call. What exactly do you think you are behind to make such a fold correct? Are you that positive its a set?

[Popinjay]

Possible BB Holding / Combinations / +EV or -EV to call on turn

85 / 9 cmb / +EV
KJ / 4 cmb / +EV
AJ / 8 cmb / -EV
J5 / 6 cmb / -EV
J8 / 6 cmb / -EV
JQ / 6 cmb / -EV
88 / 3 cmb / -EV
55 / 3 cmb / -EV
9T / 16 cmb / -EV
JJ/QQ is another possibility, but it's unlikely as BB did not reraise pre-flop.

There are 13 combinations that make a call +EV and 48 combinations that make a call -EV. For a call to be +EV here the BB would have had to had capped the flop with as low a holding as J4. Now that is all read based, but I think it is unlikely that the BB capped with J4. If he is a maniac though and would cap with something like J4 or even any 8, then you must call. This is also calculated completely disregarding MP's holdings.

edit: I did not consider implied odds. If it were certain that the MP was going to call behind on the turn and that the BB and MP would both call a bet on the river when you hit then it is a call (again, completely disregarding the MP's holdings).

In conclusion, it is close and depends on your MP/BB reads.

[Popinjay]

Another thing to consider is whether or not you will call another BB bet on the river if you miss your K/J outs. This only adds to the argument of a turn fold.

[Bill Smith]

Hand #1

Final Pot: 17.45 BB

Results below:
BB has 5d 8d (full house, fives full of eights).
Hero has Ks Jc (two pair, jacks and fives).
MP has 6s 6c (two pair, sixes and fives).
Outcome: BB wins 17.45 BB. </font>