Imortance of dealer (ruling question)

[kongo_totte]

I regularly host a home game torney, about twice a month. The game is 6-10 handed and the atmosphere is very very friendly and there hasn't been any real ruling quarry for the 2 years we've been going, until tonight. It's the same 6-10 guys every time and there's a $20 buy in. No dealer.

The problem:
Early in the torney (level 3 i think)a huge pot is built up by an MP and CO. MP declares he is all in on the turn and CO calls with a smaller stack, putting him all in.

The question is asked, do we count chips now or after show down? We usually wait until show down, to see if small stacks wins, to save time, and everyone agrees we do that now to. It's obvius though that MP covers CO with about 100-150 in chips.

Small stack CO rivers a boat an wins over MP:s 2-pair, leaving MP with about 100-150 in chips.

CO now uncautiously drags the pot to him, before we had time to count the chips, and MP gets very very upset (more than anyone at the table has ever been) and demands for the hand to be ruled dead, giving him all his chips back, or if it's uncertain how many chips it was, replaying the whole torney.

The four of us who weren't in the hand vote for the ruling.

Option 1: The torney is replayed from top
Option 2: Since CO made the mistake by touching the chips before counting, he is the crook, and therefor he must give back so much to MP so there is no risk what so ever that MP gets too few chips back.

All four vote for option 2 and decide that MP had about 100-150 left, but to be sure, we leave him 500 in chips.

Thoughts? The following is quite funny (and violent) but I'll post the ending when answered.

[dfscott]

We play in a similar manner -- if someone says "all-in" and only one other player calls, we don't count chips unless there are other people in the hand.

So exactly what did CO drag? When MP went all-in, did he dump all his chips into the pot or just push them out in front of him towards the main pot?

I'd have to rule based on my assessment of CO's intentions. If I felt that CO was deliberately trying to get extra chips, I'd rule his hand dead. If I felt like it was an honest (albiet, stupid) mistake, I'd make a good guess at MP's chip stack and adjust it as close as possible. I don't think a penalty is required (although maybe a warning is appropriate).

Just my 2 cents...

[kongo_totte]

He pushed the chips in front of him and left them there. The drag by CO was clearly unintentional, and the extra chips back to MP was really not "a penalty" per se, we just wanted to make sure that there was no doubt in anyones mind that MP didn't get to few chips back.

Declaring the hand dead wasn't really an option since MP wined about "I want the exact and precise amount I had left", which no one knew, so it was either the way we ruled or re-start of torney.

[Stew]

I don't really understand the dilema here. The chips should be counted when they are placed in the pot, end of story. If you are saying MP said, "All-in" then CO said, "Call" and then the hand was dealt out, all that has to happen is the short stack counts down his stack and that's what MP gives.

If the situation was MP pushed his chips in, then CO calls, you have to count the chips then.

Now as far as a ruling goes, the hand was played and it should count, you can't take the action back or replay the tourney. Option 2 sounds a reasonable solution, but if you all thought he had 100-150 left, why did you give him 500 back? 150-200 seems a more reasonable number to me in this situation.

[kongo_totte]

Since the game is so friendly, and there has never been a ruling argument, we count the chips only if short stack wins the hand, to save time. The all in happend on the turn, and MP then pushed his remaining chips in front of him. CO said "call" and his chips remained where they were.

The 500 was just as a secutiry so that no one could doubt even the slightest that MP was mistreated, and CO did not protest to this.

From now one we will of course always count chips before show down, but we didn't think it was nescessary this time since it has never been a problem.

To avoid other future dilemmas, I'm putting up a note with all the rules.

[Seminary Rounder]

I'm still a little fuzzy about what CO did. Did he drag MP's stack that he had pushed forward, thereby spilling his chips into the previously established pot?

In my opinion if MP pushed his chips into the actual pot pile then part of the blame lies with him. However, if CO reached and dragged MP's larger stack then some sort of recount needs to be done. But I must agree that a restart of the tourney or a complete hand kill seems a bit extreme.

In my games we set our bets in front of us until the round is complete then they are brought together. We don't require the player calling all-in to push his chips in, but the words have to be said. Usually our chips stay right where they are until after the showdown, and if the short stack wins then his chips are counted down. Any and all chips that come from the loosing stack are counted and stacked in the middle of the table by the loosing player, and then raked by the winning player, if no dealer.

I would set a rule that you keep your hands away from any pot until it is pushed to you by the acting dealer for that hand. Also that pushing large stacks of chips into the middle is frowned upon, because even experienced players get excited about a big pot can make mistakes. It is better to keep your chips close and then count down rather than the dramatic push all in.

[ddss6_99]

sooooo.....yeah.....about that violent ending you speak of....(waits patiently)

[smoore]

Not so much importance of dealer, but importance of making sure what you take is actually yours. The guy who dragged the pot royally screwed up by taking money that he wasn't entitled to. Only real way to handle it is to count back the bets that each and every player put into the pot, bet by bet. It's a huge pain in the ***, but it gets the job done. Screw giving the big stack 500, he only gets what can't be accounted for in bets. Smack the short stack for grabbing the bet too....

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
Since the game is so friendly, and there has never been a ruling argument, we count the chips only if short stack wins the hand, to save time. The all in happend on the turn, and MP then pushed his remaining chips in front of him. CO said "call" and his chips remained where they were.

The 500 was just as a secutiry so that no one could doubt even the slightest that MP was mistreated, and CO did not protest to this.

From now one we will of course always count chips before show down, but we didn't think it was nescessary this time since it has never been a problem.

To avoid other future dilemmas, I'm putting up a note with all the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you obviously can't go back and undo what is done. I also understand it's a "friendly" home game. But, even so, I think in the future you would be well served by having rules outlined so there are no future problems. I play in a "friendly" tourney every month and believe me if I didn't have the rules clearly outlined there would be several issues that arise each tourney, there still are. We always argue over whose the button and BB/SB when it's heads-up. Every time, there's at least one string raise. Everytime someone mucks their hand or has their hand ruled dead for one reason or another. Having the rules clearly outlined helps settle these issues.

We've probably played 15 tournaments and the most recent one two weeks ago, the old whose on the button rule when heads up came up. I pulled out the rules and showed them. Even then, one guy was like, "That isn't right, where did you get that." Fortunately, he and I were not involved in the play at this point, so I went over to my friends PC and dialed-up Robert's Rules of Poker and that ended that.

[kongo_totte]

The exact amount could not be established with 100% certanity since no one was sure of exactly how big the bets had been (multiple re-raises on all streets (this is NL))

Seminary Rounder:
MP pushed his chips in front of him, and not into the previously established pot. CO dragged MP:s money, and some fell into the main pot and some into CO:s own stack.

As for the violent ending, here is what happend:
MP did not accept our ruling (for option 2) and claimed that he wanted the exact amount (which he and everyone else knew couldn't be done) or for a re-start of torney. When we ruled as we did, he demanded his buy-in back, and said the money belonged to him. We all said of course that his money were paid and there was no way he would get it back.

He then continued acting like a big baby and tried to take his money back by force. He became very violent and splashed all of one players chips all over the table (mixing it with everyone elses chips). That player replied "WTF are you doing", whereupon loser MP tried to kick him in the head. I then grabbed him and tried to take him out of the house, he re-plied with a fist on my chin.

The weird thing is, him and I are usually very good friends, and I have never ever seen him becoming violent before, over the ten years we have known eachother.

After physically holding him back for about an hour, destroying everyones evening, we gave him his money back and made clear that he would never be invited again, and that he should feel free to call everyone of us when he was ready to apoligize (he called this afternoon, feeling like an ass, as he should)

Conclusion: I have now learned the hard way, that when it comes to gambling for money, the importance of clarifying rules to everyone can not be over estimated.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
In my games we set our bets in front of us until the round is complete then they are brought together. We don't require the player calling all-in to push his chips in, but the words have to be said. Usually our chips stay right where they are until after the showdown, and if the short stack wins then his chips are counted down. Any and all chips that come from the loosing stack are counted and stacked in the middle of the table by the loosing player, and then raked by the winning player, if no dealer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Same here. The only time all-in bets actually get put in is when very small stacks pick up their half-dozen or so chips and push them forward. Bigger stacks always just verbally declare.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
The four of us who weren't in the hand vote for the ruling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a bad precedent as well, and I see lots of people use this method to decide disputes.

You should designate one person as tournament director (usually the host) and all decisions of that person are final. The problem with a committee is that it is likely that you'll get less than a unanimous decision, which will lend credence to opposing views and you end up with lobbying from both sides.

It can also cause rifts and uncomfortable situations among the committee members as they can be seen as "taking sides."

[bongrip]

was there alcohol involved?

hmmm. we have a friendly game like yours too, and we dont count unless there are more than 2 in... perhaps that will change this month.

sounds like an MTV real world poker episode. How's the chin?

[kongo_totte]

The chin is alright, and we have sorted the issue out.

No alcohol was involved. He believes, as do we, that his lack of judgement and over reaction was the result of him breaking up with his girl friend a couple of weeks ago. When Doyle Brunson statet in SS that you shouldn't play poker angry or upset, is this what he meant? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif