TT in early

[Frelled]

Hi,

I'm pretty sure I played this all wrong. BB is a TAG.

Calling just seemed so wrong but I couldn't figure out what else to do.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (9 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls $1 (All-In), MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

[adamstewart]

Bet out on the flop. (after that, all my plays would depend on how the others responded).

You have to be more aggressive!


Adam

[SamIAm]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling just seemed so wrong

[/ QUOTE ]Right. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I would definitely bet-out on the flop. If you think a pair of tens might hold-up if somebody's betting into you, you DEFINITELY want to be the one betting into THEM, when you raised preflop.

I agree the jack isn't what you wanted to see on the flop, but you can't hope the entire board falls without an over-card.
-Sam

[Womble]

Although a J isnt a bad overcard. An ace or king would probably deserve a check as people play Kxs and Axs so you are more likely drawing. Without betting, you have no indication how strong you hand is.

[chris_a]

I'm guessing you didn't want to bet it because of fact that you were up against 3 players. A lot of this is up to your personal preference....

If you are tight enough to let go of this to any bet, then you want to check and fold against this field. Some people take out the guess work and fold this. This can't be optimal though, since lots of people make money with TT and this isn't that bad of a flop.

Since you clearly aren't tight enough to let go of this to any bet, you should bet yourself! It will help thin the field, and give you information about where you stand.

With your strategy, you either lost 5 small bets (postflop) or you won 15.5 small bets.

If you bet the flop, get raised, then check and fold the turn, you lose 2 small bets (postflop). He's very likely to raise you on the flop with top pair since he's tight and aggressive and since there's another player left to act. So I'll assume that this is his play.

If you bet the flop, aren't raised, and you bet the turn, you most likely won't be raised with this card. Then, on the river you can either a) check and call if he's a good player who might fold if you bet, but will bet if you check into you to try to steal it from your "AK", or b) bet if he'll call you with worse hands a decent amount. If he's tight and aggressive, check and call might be right. You're not losing that much if he checks behind you.

You'll lose 4 or 5 SB this way when you lose and win 14.5 or 15.5 SB when you win. The is very close to your check and call strategy. The gain from this strategy comes from when you are raised on the flop and you fold on the turn. Here you are saving the late street bets.

I'm sure someone better will have some refinement of my strategy, but this is closer to correct.

[Dangergirl]

I would bet out on the flop also. I also have to agree with Adam as far as be more aggressive. You checking on the flop already indicated weakness on your part.

[cpk]

Boy do I hate being out of position against a TAG. The problem is that if it's a true TAG, you're not going to know whether a raise means "flush draw." A TAG would be able to raise with a hand like 99 if he thought you were capable of leading out with AK. Thus, leading into him doesn't really help you gain information.

Here's where I like a stop-n-go. If Mr. TAG doesn't figure out what is going on, he will probably behave predictablly--raising a hand you lose to and calling or folding a worse hand. If not, you're simply screwed because he's got position.

Thus, lead out, call if raised. Lead out again, fold if raised. It's that simple. You've got some extra protection against a repeat bluff because one of the players is all in.

[StellarWind]

Love Farscape /images/graemlins/cool.gif. Welcome to 2+2.

You need to bet this flop. The rule of thumb is you should keep betting this type of maybe-good-but-hardly-any-outs hand until you no longer believe in it. Then you checkfold. Huge oversimplification here, but that is the general rule that you need to learn before you start learning when to make exceptions.

[TheHip41]

It's really weak/tight to not bet this flop. You will be ahead here a lot more than you are behind. There are only 3 other J's left, no one has AA, KK, or QQ. You can't checkhere because you might be ahead, and you want to charge all the flush, straight, 1 pair, and over card draws. If you bet the flop, and everyone, calls, then a low card hits the turn, and you bet, and get raised, you can get away from your hand. Check calling gives you no info. Win or lose, you are just playing into other ppls hands. Take the initiative, make them react to you.

[Anders_G]

Given that noone raised pre-flop i think that the jack is quite a bad overcard. It is not uncommon to see players limp in with QJo and KJo in middle to late position. QJ or KJ is also a hand BB frequently calls raises with.

You need to bet out to know where you're at with this flop. If you're raised you're probably beat and if you're not you can probably bet the turn.

[Frelled]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. After thinking about it I guess I've always been ok with betting, but raising (or knowing I'll be raised) seems to be a bit of a phobia with me. Must put that right /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Oddly enough I've had similar hands twice already and wondered if you could tell me if I'm getting closer to where I should be with this.

In the first hand MP2 is loose/passive/aggressive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

In the second hand BB is a different opponent but he's also loose/passive/aggressive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (7.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB folds, BB checks, Hero checks.

I checked here because I figured if I was behind I could easily be check raised, and I might as well take a free card. I also figured that no matter how bad I play, it's not as bad as SB /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

River: (7.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River completed the flush draw so again I feared the check-raise (especially with the two overcards) so I just checked.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Frelled.

NB : Yeah, Farscape rocks /images/graemlins/smile.gif