give up and accept second?

[lucas9000]

in the last couple days i've found myself in particular situations where i'm either short-stacked or one of the short stacks on the bubble. i have been playing this scenario well and consistently making it into the money, and in the situations i'm specifically asking about in this post, i've ended up heads up against the chip leader. the times in question i've had around T3,000 chips and chip leader has had around T10,000 (i've been playing on full tilt, where everyone starts with T1,500 chips). now, i could grind it out and really bust my ass to go for first, but on both occasions i've just gone all in on every hand, telling the big stack what my cards are, to just get the thing over with. my thinking has been that it wasn't worth the difference in money between first and second, considering the time it would take and the significant chip disadvantage i'm facing.

now, i'm not saying i always settle for second, just that in the two occasions like this recently i've done so. is this line of thinking (that my time and effort aren't necessarily worth the less-than-50-50 chance that i'll get first, when i've already got second locked) anywhere close to reasonable? or am i just a complete boob?

[MrX]

[ QUOTE ]
is this line of thinking (that my time and effort aren't necessarily worth the less-than-50-50 chance that i'll get first, when i've already got second locked) anywhere close to reasonable? or am i just a complete boob?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a COMPLETE BOOB!

Seriously what the heck are you thinking. I assume these are 10 man SNG's with a 50-30-20 payout so of course you should be playing to win when it gets down to the end. This is CRUCIAL time in a SNG. Play once it gets down to 3 people is one of the most under-discussed aspects of SNG play. Everyone seems fixated on bubble play and making iot into the $ (for obviuos reasons), but to be atruly successful player you need to maximize every opportunity to make more $ and you have a great chance.

In your scenario with 10k vs your 3k, if you double up once you have virtually an even stack.

Honestly, I cannot even believe you posted this question, to me there is no real discussion necessary.

When down to two, no matter what your stack size is..play to win!

When I read your post I thought you going to give a bizarre scenario where 3 players remained and the 2 identical large stacks were both all in and you were deciding what to do with your small stack and JJ in the BB. That might be worth discussing.

MrX

[jcm4ccc]

wow. I'm not giving up on 1st place ever, even with 100 chips. 1st place is where you make your money. 2nd and 3rd place is just treading water.

Here's what I mean. Let's say you never get 1st place, that you evenly split your wins between 2nd and 3rd, and you are in the money 50% of the time.

Stars $50 + $5 tournament, 2nd place pays $135 (profit = $80), 3rd place pays $90 (profit = $35).

Your take:
50% * -$55 = -$27.5
25% * $80 = $20.00
25% * $35 = $8.75

Average profit = $1.25
ROI = 2.2%

Barely breaking even.

If you're not going to grind it out in this situation, why even play?

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
anywhere close to reasonable? or am i just a complete boob?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually the difference betweeen 1st and 2nd is pretty big. If you just give up, you can't develop skill and working from even stacks or even a slightly lower stack. You're giving up much more than just 1st place prize when you give up. It really doesn't take that long to finish out a SnG when you get to 2nd. Why not just settle for 4th when you get there, the money difference is the same between 4th/3rd as it is between 2nd/1st.

[sofere]

Are you a boob? Let's put it this way, if there were two of you standing next to each other, it would make Pam Anderson look like an A cup.

There's a 66.7 % increase in payout and a 112.5% increase in profit from 2nd place to 1st place. Why is that not worth your time? If your bored, start another game while you play heads up.

Edit: Unless you're playing against me, then by all means give up.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
You are a COMPLETE BOOB!

[/ QUOTE ]

that's kind of what i thought. thanks for confirming it.

and yes, my handle is the same on partypoker so go ahead everyone and start adding me to your buddy lists so you can get in sng's with me /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Hauser_III]

You play, and you play down to the last chip. First, the experience you gain from short-handed play is worth the time, even if you spend an extra 25 minutes on this "hopeless" situation and end up finishing 2nd. Second, you're not doomed to finishing second, not by any means. It's about a 3-1 disadvantage and, while it's not comfortable, it's not insurmountable by any means. I can't begin to tell you how many 7-stud hi-lo SNG's I've won when I've been seriously short-stacked when it gets down to the final 2. Play the cards, play to win, and think of the time spent as a wise investment even if you ultimately finish 2nd.

[MrX]

Three stages of a SNG

pre bubble: poor play lowers ROI, but good play does not raise your ROI much

bubble: poor play lowers ROI and good play raises ROI

post bubble: poor play lowers ROI and good play raises ROI

I would argue the prebubble play is the easiest and least inportant to your overall ROI if playing smart. The two things to try to master here are getting paid off huge with sets and with AA/KK, as you play more you'll find the optimal strategy for this at each level.

Bubble and postbubble play are nearly equal IMO, so do not miss out on such an important facet of SNG play.

Interestingly there is not much skill and strategy in the HU aspect of a SNG since the stack/blind ration is so low. These HU matches at the end of a SNG play out so much differently than deeper stack HU play (a truly fun game).

MrX

[PE101]

This is a great thread!

I think an "In the Money" forum would be really valuable!

"In the Money" and "Heads-up" play is certainly differnt from tourney play at large.

[sofere]

I absolutely agree...and hope eventually there is a section in AleoMagus's guide for in the money play.

I've recently discovered that I suck at in the money (about 50% 2nd, 40% 3rd, 10% 1st in my small sample of 57 games) and would greatly appreciate any advice offered.

[El Maximo]

The best advice I can give you Sofer is to play against players that tell you their hole cards when they push. My ROI% shot up once I figured out this little gem.

[PE101]

Hmmm...

How do you get them to do that? The only way I'm showing my hole cards is if you call...

[ColdestCall]

Based on those numbers, and without knowing anything else, it sounds like you are not playing nearly aggressively enough when you get ITM. I think there is a decent chance your ROI would increase if you just started pushing every single hand once you got ITM.

[eastbay]

C'mon, man, don't be stupid. If playing HU for the difference between 1st and 2nd isn't worth your time or effort, playing online poker isn't worth your time and effort, period.

This is either a really lame troll or you're being very, very stupid.

eastbay

[OldLearner]

Read TPFAP. It has some excellent advice on SH/HU play. Especially about raising/defending.

You should be doing as much raising/stealing as your opponent permits. I was HU against someone with a 10:3 chip lead the other day and pushed/raised 5 or 6 times in row until we had equal stacks because my opponent refused to defend.

[MrX]

In the $ I try to figure out a few things fast (observations from multitabling NL30's and NL50's).

1. Do my opponents fold too much. Specifically are they going to fold around often when I am in the BB. Usually their bubble play is indicitive of their post bubble play.

With these players that fold too much I used to be the super aggro type and raise every hand, which is not a negative play...but then I learned something which has increased my ROI and finish distribution....

Raise more selectivey, because you will also be "stealing" the blinds when they are folded to you. My raises get more respect also then.

2. Are your opponents super "gappers"..ie raise any two but only call with premium hands?

These opponents are tough, you must figure out what your calling standards are if evenly stacked, something along the lines of pairs 88-AA, AK-AT, KQ. (but sometines I will lower these if he is the type who is literally push any 2 from the SB) Remeber this is the opponent that you will be raising preflop from the SB against virtually every time because he will also be folding until he gets a premium hand.

You have probably experienced this HU battle where the SB goes all in and the BB folds for about 20 hands in a row until 2 big hands tangle.

This of course is an oversimplification of post bubble play and HU finishes. EXPERIENCE is a must.

Limp every now and then to see what your opponents play is, some will go all in EVERY time you kimp from the SB. Use this to your advantage later as the blinds increases and you pick up JJ or better.

If opponent limps from the SB and he is prone to doing this, push him in with any 2, assuming he is not pot committed your folding equity is very high here.

If your opponent raises every time and then limps form the SB, think for a moment if he is setting a trap, and be more careful aout pushing.

When you have a nice chip lead exert maximum pressure on the MIDDLE stack especially when there is a tiny stack left. The middle stack will not want to bust when there is a stack of <500 left at the table. You should be raising any two there. This position is very profitable, pummel that middle stack so when it does become HU you have a nice cushion.

Random thoughts there to finish it off.

GL, MrX

[Colquhoun]

I'm surprized that no one has mentioned this to you before...but it sounds like you need to move up a level. It sounds like you are bored with the play and the money doesn't mean enough. If you are consistently getting in the money at the level you are, go up a money level or two and see how you do. I bet you will regain that desire to fight for the finish.
As far as play goes, I find that people play either way too agressively (unless the blinds are SUPER high) or way too passively. If your opponent(s) are overly aggressive, tighten up a wee bit (but not too long for the blinds will get you) and wait for some painted cards and push back HARD. If your opponent(s) are passive, push hard against them and take lots of blinds, but be cautious when faced with resistance.

[sofere]

I think my problem is I don't mix it up very much. I would consider myself in the "super gapper" range as you called it. Especially when 3 handed and I'm big stack. But I always seem to have problems when I get played back at often. This happens a lot more often in Heads up because almost any raise is considered a blind steal unless your playing very passively.

I think if I toned down my aggression slightly, i might be able to get more respect for my raises.

Also I find I have trouble when people play me passively from the SB, especially even stacked. When they complete, I will raise pot very often, but have trouble if i don't catch anything on the flop. Since blinds are generally high at this point if they check the flop, a bluff bet could hurt me severely if called. If I push, only a hand that beats me calls. I have no clue as to what my pushing standards should be.

[sofere]

Jacks321 PMed me a link to an interesting series of articles regarding Heads up play...
Match Play (http://www.ultimatebet.com/learn-poker/strategy-tournament.html)

[morgan180]

check out the heads up & short-handed forum for more on all of this stuff, there is some good advice over there.

If you're bored play more than one at a time, that way you're not trying to end anything, its just part of your online playing time. Then playing for first isn't a "waste of time" (i don't think that's ever the case, anyway JMO) because you're in the middle of another one.

Multi-tabling makes SNGs much more enjoyable, I think.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
This is either a really lame troll or you're being very, very stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

i assure you it's the latter. it took a few people pointing it out for me to realize how insanely idiotic my thinking was (and again this was only in like 2 situations just recently...i certainly don't always just give up when heads up). no more boobery like this from me, i promise.

[Mr_J]

Why? 10k chips vs 3k chips. One good hand and it's now 7k vs 6k. The swings HU in sngs are huge. When it comes down to HU, I'm usually the underdog yet am more often the winner. This is at PP $33 and lower, but my point is you will still win a decent % of the time as the underdog, and to give up on 1st is taking a huge hit in ROI.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
no more boobery like this from me, i promise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a new favorite word. Can't wait for the chance to use it in conversation.

[SuitedSixes]

Short-stacked, heads-up in my favorite situation to play in. I think that is the best time to show your prowess as a tournament player. I honestly think I learn something every time I am in this situation.