AQo from SB vs MP raiser and no callers

[spydog]

MP2 is relatively unknown, but looks TAGish. After 30 hands, he is 20/8.

BB is TAG. I don't think a 3-bet is necessary to fold him.

Preflop: Fold, call, or 3-bet. I think a 3-bet would give me the ability to steal on the flop, so my call is on the weak side.

Flop: Assuming he's a TAG, I think a good line is check-call, check-call, bet river.

Turn: I think I'm ok here.

River: Lead this? CR this? I don't think I can 3-bet.....


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[eagletmr]

I would have three bet preflop to find out better where I'm at, do others disagree? How you played it, I would have gone for a check raise on the flop, and then bet out the turn unless I got three bet on the flop.

[mr magoo]

Assuming he's a TAG, I would fold preflop. Im I bad?

[wuarhg]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming he's a TAG, I would fold preflop. Im I bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have three bet preflop to find out better where I'm at, do others disagree? How you played it, I would have gone for a check raise on the flop, and then bet out the turn unless I got three bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would three bet if you were suited as it would have given another way to win the pot. As it were, AQ off is a hand that needs to pair to have any value. With the size of the pot in this circumstance and the fact that the raiser has position on you in future rounds, i would actually consider mucking it. that being said, if i were to play it, i like a call on the flop amd a checkraise on the flop as calling gives me no information.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming he's a TAG, I would fold preflop. Im I bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. The pot is tiny in this case (3.5 bets) The pot is laying you 2.3:1 in this case. Just not worth it unless you have a definate read that you are far superior post flop which in this case you don't.

[ghostface]

I would muck this PF for not being suited. Even then its questionable. That said c/r the flop and if three bet sometimes I'd release on 4th st or see it to showdown sometimes.

[chesspain]

I see the PF call as being debateable; however, the post flop play is fine. For those of you who want to checkraise the flop to "find out where you are":

1) Why do you want the TAG to possibly fold his underpair?

2) Why do you assume that TAG will mindlessly 3-bet with AK/AA so that you can fold? Chances are a TAG with these hands will smooth call your checkraise and wait until the turn or river to raise you.

Hero's line wins the most when he is ahead and loses the least when he is behind.

[Carmine]

I think you decide in this situation before you even put in the first bet PF what the PF-raiser has and how much you are willing to win or lose and just play it that way and be done with (Unless you Q pairs of course than it's time to make some money...usually).

I don't think you have enough hand to 3-bet PF and to me that screams hands like TT-JJ which if your opponent does the same will hurt you in this situation. In a HU situation like this I play it much like you did. You may win a little or lose a little and move on. I don't fear the River raise either because if MP had a hand like 99-KK he just improved because you are that much less likely to hold an Ace and that gives him reason to raise. Maybe he has AK maybe he doesn't. Maybe just check/call the river probably not a big differance EV wise.

I often have those voices in my head that say raise this street or that for information, but without knowing your opponent well his actions could mean anything. You spend just as much just calling down and still have a chance to take it down. At least in a HU situation. I'm sure many will disagree with me though.

[marching_on_together]

[ QUOTE ]
I see the PF call as being debateable; however, the post flop play is fine. For those of you who want to checkraise the flop to "find out where you are":

1) Why do you want the TAG to possibly fold his underpair?

2) Why do you assume that TAG will mindlessly 3-bet with AK/AA so that you can fold? Chances are a TAG with these hands will smooth call your checkraise and wait until the turn or river to raise you.

Hero's line wins the most when he is ahead and loses the least when he is behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all of this, 30 hands is not much to go on so it's not possible from this to judge his raising standards from this position. I would therefore give a 30 hand TAG the benefit of the doupt that he likely has a decent hand here one which aq is unlikely to be much ahead of and frequently slightly behind and sometimes a long way behind. I would fold this pre-flop. The post flop play looks good .

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I see the PF call as being debateable; however, the post flop play is fine. For those of you who want to checkraise the flop to "find out where you are":

1) Why do you want the TAG to possibly fold his underpair?

2) Why do you assume that TAG will mindlessly 3-bet with AK/AA so that you can fold? Chances are a TAG with these hands will smooth call your checkraise and wait until the turn or river to raise you.

Hero's line wins the most when he is ahead and loses the least when he is behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

good points all of them. I like a CR bcuz a TAG player will open with just about any playable hand. The times that he has a small pair or suited broadway will far outweigh the times he has AA/AK, your hand is probably best at this time. The way $ is made from poker is from opponents making mistakes. A CR is the best way to protect your hand and the best oppertunity for your opponent to make a mistake. To rebutt the point that the hero's line wins the most when ahead and lose the least when behind....hero is ahead in this situation many more times than he is behind. IMHO this is passive poker.

johnny

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a CR bcuz a TAG player will open with just about any playable hand. The times that he has a small pair or suited broadway will far outweigh the times he has AA/AK, your hand is probably best at this time. The way $ is made from poker is from opponents making mistakes. A CR is the best way to protect your hand and the best oppertunity for your opponent to make a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why do you want to give your opponent the opportunity to correctly get away from his underpair? Moreover, you do not need to "protect" your hand in this small pot, since if you are ahead of the TAG you will most likely stay ahead of him. You want the TAG to stay with you when he has an underpair or a worse ace. And if he has a "suited broadway" he likely has to catch runner-runner to beat you.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like a CR bcuz a TAG player will open with just about any playable hand. The times that he has a small pair or suited broadway will far outweigh the times he has AA/AK, your hand is probably best at this time. The way $ is made from poker is from opponents making mistakes. A CR is the best way to protect your hand and the best oppertunity for your opponent to make a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why do you want to give your opponent the opportunity to correctly get away from his underpair? Moreover, you do not need to "protect" your hand in this small pot, since if you are ahead of the TAG you will most likely stay ahead of him. You want the TAG to stay with you when he has an underpair or a worse ace. And if he has a "suited broadway" he likely has to catch runner-runner to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i feel that giving him the oppertunity to get away from his small pocket pair is the price you pay for giving him the oppertunity to make a mistake. It is true that it is unlikely that your opponent will improve, that doesn't mean it can't be done. Furthermore, you do not want to let him do this for free. Slowplaying is only correct when you have a hand that has almost no chance to be beaten. Finally, the way that the hero played is weak, power poker wins the money in the long run.

[chief444]

Against a TAG raise, I have no problem folding this pf. But I think the call is OK. I would say it's close.

I think your post flop play is ideal for reasons chesspain stated. I could see an argument for 3-betting the river but I would just call the raise.

[molawn2mo]

preflop is fine if you know bb will fold to a call or a 3 bet.

flop and turn look good.

river, i think is a check call in an attempt to get villain to bluff the river w/out a hand. your play heretofore can be misunderstood as weak (as some posters here attest to) but, rather, i see the play as solid without being overplayed.

the river check call is prudent and a check raise is possible (anybody?). other than an outright bluff, you beat no hand that will vp$ip. as such, i think you should check call beating the bluff and losing the least when behind.

[chief444]

I like betting the river because it is now much more likely hero is ahead and lower pocket pairs will call but may not bet.

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
I like betting the river because it is now much more likely hero is ahead and lower pocket pairs will call but may not bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you fold to a 3 bet?

[bdk3clash]

It won't get 3-bet (unless hero 3-bets, which he shouldn't) since we bet out and villain either calls or raises.

I would play this exactly the same on each street. It's the best way to win the most when you're ahead and lose the minimum when you're behind. Against some players you can fold to a river raise, but I would call here because the opponent might be thinking you're thinking him having Ax is now unlikely since there are 2 on board.

[me454555]

The call of the river raise is manditory b/c of the strenth of your hand the likelyhood of your opponent to think you are bluffing.

I see peopel bluff the river all the time on party 3/6 when the board pairs and I'll raise them if my hand is any good. These people will bet with middle pair and other weak hands that they will call a raise with.

Villan could take this line w/AJ, AQ, AK, or AT and assume hero is betting a weaker ace that didn't pair his kicker.

[me454555]

A fold here pf is way too weak. 1) We don't know mp2 is a TAG he's only played 30 hands. 2) If he is a TAG, hes open raising from MP2. That gives him a wide variety of hands to raise with. I'll make a raise here w/hands like 77 or ATs. Sometimes even less if the table is playing tight. Those are 2 hands that hero beats pf.

[Entity]

Preflop is meh. I'd fold against some guys, call against others. Probably a little loose because his raise came from MP rather than LP, but not terrible.

Your postflop line is perfect. I really like the way you played it.

Rob

[marching_on_together]

[ QUOTE ]
A fold here pf is way too weak. 1) We don't know mp2 is a TAG he's only played 30 hands. 2) If he is a TAG, hes open raising from MP2. That gives him a wide variety of hands to raise with. I'll make a raise here w/hands like 77 or ATs. Sometimes even less if the table is playing tight. Those are 2 hands that hero beats pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

no he doesn't he's behind 77 preflop and slightly worse than evens to be behind at the end. If the player defo was a TAG this would be a certain fold for me.

[me454555]

While he's slightly behind hands like 77 and middle pps, if he 3 bets this pf, he can easily get them to fold even if he misses the flop. If any broadway card comes or overcard for that matter, a middle pp might fold assuming he's beat.

AQ also dominates hands like AJ and AT and those effects combined with good postflop play make this hand a winner and a pf 3bet.

[marching_on_together]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like a CR bcuz a TAG player will open with just about any playable hand. The times that he has a small pair or suited broadway will far outweigh the times he has AA/AK, your hand is probably best at this time. The way $ is made from poker is from opponents making mistakes. A CR is the best way to protect your hand and the best oppertunity for your opponent to make a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why do you want to give your opponent the opportunity to correctly get away from his underpair? Moreover, you do not need to "protect" your hand in this small pot, since if you are ahead of the TAG you will most likely stay ahead of him. You want the TAG to stay with you when he has an underpair or a worse ace. And if he has a "suited broadway" he likely has to catch runner-runner to beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i feel that giving him the oppertunity to get away from his small pocket pair is the price you pay for giving him the oppertunity to make a mistake. It is true that it is unlikely that your opponent will improve, that doesn't mean it can't be done. Furthermore, you do not want to let him do this for free. Slowplaying is only correct when you have a hand that has almost no chance to be beaten. Finally, the way that the hero played is weak, power poker wins the money in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

The post flop play is correct for the reasons already stated, the way hero played was not weak at all. If you check raise me in this situation when i have an excellent hand which i strongly believe to be ahead i will flat call your raise and checkraise you on a later street (which street would depend on the strength of my hand) if i check raise the river then your going to feel inclined to call that final bet because the pot will be big. If alternatively i'm behind you your check raise will allow me to dump my hand early. Only if you caught me with a worse ace A10 or AJ might you get more out of me by check raising even then if my read of you was good i might drop these if i didn't feel i had the odds to continue. Against a TAG you should play it the way the hand was played out post flop

[marching_on_together]

AQ unsuited is a 3 betting hand in certain circumstances but you need the initial raiser to either be a more loose raiser than is implied by the stats here (though 30 hannds is not much) or to play poor post flop. If your aggressive here pre flop you will have to continue that aggression post flop and your likely to lose more than you win against a true TAG. Calling folding or rasing depends on your read but against a true TAG this is for me a fold

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
2) If he is a TAG, hes open raising from MP2. That gives him a wide variety of hands to raise with. I'll make a raise here w/hands like 77 or ATs. Sometimes even less if the table is playing tight. Those are 2 hands that hero beats pf.

[/ QUOTE ] ...
Read through two pages of posts and finally i see someone recognize that this player is open-raising from MP2. This significantly widens his possible hands. I would raise with AJ, A10/ any pp 88+, KQ, KJ, and the occassional 39. Only calling with AQs b/c of the chance of hitting the flush and having one player pay u off is nonsense. 30 hands is way too small to label a player. IMO, u played the turn and river too passively. I probably call the flop and c-r the turn for value. To an earlier poster, what exactly are u trying to protect against with a flop c-r? All of those people still in the hand will quiver at the thought of calling two cold. Anyway, if he 3 bets your c-r, u could be in trouble against AK, but i still call down. The turn lead smells like a bluff at a scare card and he could be raising with his underpair if he's aggressive or still might with A10-AQ.
My $.02

[bdk3clash]

I hate the paradigm that states that AQo is "behind" 77, or 22. Look at your PokerTracker earn rates (sample size blah blah blah) and tell me what's behind what.

As much as I'd love to shove all the money in preflop and let what happens happens, limit is way more dynamic than this and I'd rather have AQo in this spot every time.

Would you 3-bet with 22 if you somehow knew your opponent didn't have a pocket pair but had just raised?

[ErrantNight]

search around for other discussion of the way ahead / way behind line. this is a classic example. it's been discussed, it's been decided, in circumstances like this,
check/call check/call bet is the preferred line. It's not really a "debate" so much as it is... the correct line. It meets resistance because it's "passive" but aggression is not ALWAYS the way to make money.

You don't have to believe me, or chesspain, or anyone else if you don't like... but you CAN go back and read the half dozen or so previous discussions on this topic that all come to the exact same conclusion:

check/call
check/call
bet

and i don't think you 3-bet the river. a TAG familiar with this line might be raising you to get you to fold w/ a chop, a worse ace, or even bluffing with no ace, but if he is he's not calling a 3-bet and if he's got AK he's capping.

I don't think the 3-bet has any value (anyone disagree?).

[ErrantNight]

and if you c/r for "value" and he folds? a tag is releasing if he doesn't have it, and 3-betting right back at you, or c/r the river when he's got you.

there's a very simple line for this, and y'all who don't know it/like it (as most everyone, including myself, didn't once know it/like it), should learn it.

he played this perfectly postflop. there's minor argument over preflop, but particularly with his read on the BB, the call is just fine.

i don't think you can 3-bet this river for the same reasons you can't go c/r or betting out on the first two streets.

a tag is punishing you when you're behind and not paying you off when you're ahead enough to make up the difference.

[me454555]

Its folded to you in MP2, you look down at the following hands. What do you do?

AQ?
AJ?
ATs?
ATo?
KQ?
KJ?
QJ?
ppsJJ down to 77?

These are all hands that a TAG would raise 1st in from MP2. If he was a true TAG and thought he could get away w/it he might get have an even wider array of hands.

Against all but AQ, AK, AA, KK, and QQ you are ahead by a lot or 50/50 at worst. Add the distinct possibility that you can outplay him postflop by 3 betting pf and this becomes and easy situation.

Folding here is a horribly weak move.